BSN patient outcomes

[S.G.]

I haven't done the research myself, so please forgive me if this is an ignorant thought.

I have read studies citing that BSN prepared nurses have better patient outcomes than ADN prepared nurses.

I find myself wondering if any studies compare ADNs to BSNs who were not diploma or ADN nurses first. I haven't found a study that doesn't include experienced nurses who have gone back for their BSN (I haven't tried very hard to look but I did search a bit while going back for my own BSN). It seems like it would make sense that more experience and more education would have better outcomes. Is there a difference in patient outcomes for new grad BSN versus RN-BSN students? I would think yes. It's not a fair comparison to say that BSN nurses have better outcomes than ADN nurses if RN-BSN nurses are included in the study. RN- BSN nurses should have better outcomes than ADN nurses if only because they do have more experience.

Just my random thought for today...

[adnrnstudent, ASN, RN]

Using Statistics, I'll bet I can show and have someone write a paper for me (since I don't write papers) that says nurses that were raised in higher income families have better outcomes than nurses raised in lower income families. And based on that, Magnet should also exclude poor kids that had to bust their butt to get their ADN. That is what the current study really says and the author is too stupid to realize it. Keep reading.

I had someone disagree with me on this recently, I think they thought I was being snobby and I wasn't, I'm actually a big defender of the ADN. I have an ADN with BS in another field.

If you look at a study where a BSNs has better outcomes than ADNs, I have my own theory why that is.

I would like to further look at the social class and upbringing of those same ADNs and BSNs.

Today's ADN is different than yesterday's ADN. Today's ADNs are very educated, and many are career changers. It is also so hard to get into many ADN programs today that many of the ADN students are already cream of the crop people. (ADN schools in Illinois historically destrory BSN schools on NCLEX) (Yesterday's ADNs, keep reading, I'm not calling you dumb)

Generally speaking, I support any young person fresh out of high school to pursue a Bachelors.

In the past, when those studies were done, in the old economy, you were comparing people overall that were I'm guessing could be sub-divided into different social classes.

I'm guessing the ADNs overall had to work harder to pay for school while the BSNs probably had more resources from family. I'm guessing the ADNs grew up a little more blue collar and the BSNs grew up a little more white collar. (Nothing wrong with being more blue collar. I wish I had grown up more blue collar)

Now to yesterday's ADN's. I'm not calling you dumber and poorer than today's. I'm not good with words, my guess is that overall you didn't have mommy and daddy pay your way like they did for me. I am defending you. I grew up white collar, but much prefer the company of blue collar.

All I'm getting at is that ADNs may have had a less privileged life without all the resources and many are working so hard that when the study was done they had worse outcomes. (I am defending you ADNs) Maybe you weren't as chipper as the BSN with 2.5 kids, a husband named Steve who drives a nice Lexus and just bought you a new convertible, a beautiful 5 bedroom all brick house with the kitchen of your dreams, etc, etc.

In conclusion and back to the point, BSNs may have had better outcomes because when that study was done, I'm guessing those nurses may have had better attitudes with a more privileged life. Disagree all you want, but I don't believe BSNs have any better outcomes, I think it was dumb luck and I could find plenty of things like social class that would generate the same results where we could call the rich kids better nurses too. In the end, it's all BS and we're all RNs.

[adnrnstudent, ASN, RN]

Of all of the classes I have taken only the health assessment and pathophysiology has helped me at the bedside. Actually the health assessment was an in depth assessment that bedside nurses do not have time for. The other classes have not helped in the least unless you want to get into management. And even then I have another bachelors degree in Finance which would be better suited to a management position. I don't want to say that knowledge is a waste but most of these classes are not going to help you if you plan on staying at the bedside.

Experience will always trump education when it comes to nursing or actually any job for that matter. Just my humble opinion.

THIS!!!!!!! THIS!!!!!!!!!

BSN route is great for high school grad, but those of us with BS, the ADN route is an add-on and should be equivalent.

[LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN]

PP, I'm was once considered "low income"...I have my BSN. I had money thrown at me to get an education, 2-year and 4-year colleges...so I beg to differ that is what the study suggested, or in your words, someone would "make up" such a study about that...it would be unethical, actually.

In perspective, that is not what the study is suggesting; at that's from reading and researching with my own two eyes.

Not everyone who had humble beginnings went through the ADN route...there are plenty that I know of who did not have a pot to **** in and went for the BSN, around the time of the study and well after the study; in fact, who knows what background those BSNs were a part of??? That's pretty irrelevant to competent practice in research.

I understand that you made your choice to get an ADN for financial reasons; it doesn't erase the suggestion of what I saw in the studies; it only correlates Benner's theory...getting into a huff or a rant about other people's backgrounds instead of nursing competence doesn't serve us or our patients well, especially when the competence is remarkable.

If you are a competent nurse, keep yourself updated on your practice and the ever expansion of our responsibilities, then that is a boon to your patients and your practice.

WOOSAH...ok? :)

ADNs are not going anywhere...instead, what's the best way to transition nurses into confident competent individuals...transition from novice to expert successfully??? That, again, is the REAL question.

[adnrnstudent, ASN, RN]

PP, I'm was once considered "low income"...I have my BSN. I had money thrown at me to get an education, 2-year and 4-year colleges...so I beg to differ that is what the study suggested, or in your words, someone would "make up" such a study about that...it would be unethical, actually.

You're getting defensive and not understanding what I'm saying. Of course it would be an unethical study but I guarantee you if you look at those same people in study, the BSNs came from higher income families so using dumb stats I could argue poor kids shouldn't be nurses. (I don't mean that, I'm just saying I can make data show it because it's probably true but doesn't mean it should be implemented)

[LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN]

You're getting defensive and not understanding what I'm saying. Of course it would be an unethical study but I guarantee you if you look at those same people in study, the BSNs came from higher income families so using dumb stats I could argue poor kids shouldn't be nurses. (I don't mean that, I'm just saying I can make data show it because it's probably true but doesn't mean it should be implemented)

No defense at all...my point is that the stats aren't stating that BSN nurses are superior over ADNs...if you read my initial post, I stated the ONLY thing I saw was the correlation between experienced nurses and nurses with more knowledge increase patient outcomes. Patricia Benner presented the "Novice to Expert Theory". The research only supports that IMHO.

I also stated that if anything is flawed, is the position that certain parties are taking with the research; there have been tons of literature and studies that have been attempted to shape positions; however when you look line by line, it doesn't state that.

So, my position is NOT about entry to practice; it's about the focus on ensuring a transition to practice; successful competency...if anything, that's the "proof" in the research. That's pretty much the "norm" in society, with a few variables, of course.

The more one practices, take CEUs, and additional courses to shape their practice, even certify in their specialty; they are going to have better pt outcomes. I was a far better LPN five years in than I was 1 year in...that's bevause i took advantage in obtaining additional education in my practice; and I am confident that I will be a better RN another 4 years down the road. I will do that by perfecting my practice, open to learning more, and becoming certified in the specialty I work in.

[PMFB-RN, RN]

Why do nurses think that more education is a bad thing?

*** People disagreeing with you about BSN as entry to practice is certainly NOT evidence that nurses think more education is a bad thing.

[applewhitern, BSN, RN]

@ADNRNstudent: Maybe it is late and I am sleepy, but I don't agree with your comments about "yesterday's ADNs." I went through the ADN program in 1987 and we were considered the "cream of the crop" back then. We had to have a higher grade on our ACT tests (they didn't accept the SAT for the nursing program) and we had to have a higher gpa to get into the ADN program. People that didn't make the grade to qualify for the ADN program went to the BSN instead, where the grading was much less stringent. And of course the ADN program was also for those of us who had a previous degree. But I don't know where you are getting the "yesterday's ADNs" comments; if anything, from what I have seen, it was much, much harder to get in an ADN program "yesterday."

[adnrnstudent, ASN, RN]

@ applewhitern: See I'm not good expressing my thoughts properly in written form. I'm like Moses and lousy with words which is why I choose not to pursue BSN since I can't write for squat.

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

@ADNRNstudent: Maybe it is late and I am sleepy, but I don't agree with your comments about "yesterday's ADNs." I went through the ADN program in 1987 and we were considered the "cream of the crop" back then. We had to have a higher grade on our ACT tests (they didn't accept the SAT for the nursing program) and we had to have a higher gpa to get into the ADN program. People that didn't make the grade to qualify for the ADN program went to the BSN instead, where the grading was much less stringent. And of course the ADN program was also for those of us who had a previous degree. But I don't know where you are getting the "yesterday's ADNs" comments; if anything, from what I have seen, it was much, much harder to get in an ADN program "yesterday."

THIS THIS THIS ^^^^^^

My ADN program was at a 4 year college as well.......in my day when I graduated 1979-80.....you got to be a NP with a BSN.

We were the cream of the crop in order to participate in the intense rigorous program. I had micro and biochem. Pharmacology and legalities/ethics. Advanced assessment and community/leadership. They admitted only 60 students to the program. They graduated 59....one dropped out when she got pregnant with what turned out to be Identical triplets and had to go on bedrest.

My ADN program is now their accelerated BSN program.....I went to Purdue University.