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Well I am not going to "support" those who choose not to breastfeed because they don't want to.Wow. Are you a nurse working in a postpartum or labor and delivery unit? I pity the moms you must encounter who have made such a choice (and it is their choice) when you are assigned to them.
I go out of my way to support moms who breast feed and those who bottle feed. They deserve it and they can all benefit from positioning tips, comfort measures, and all sorts of other things.
I just meant I'm not going to support them.....like cheering them on, "whoo hoo formula is GREAT, there is nothing better than it!", type of support. That is all I meant. I was responding to another post. I'm not going to go *out of my way* to encourage someone to bottlefeed is what I meant. Hopefully that makes sense now. Sometimes things don't come across online as we mean for them too.
And ya I totally agree with you, I offer support in positioning tips (nothing like seeing that baby propped in the bed or stroller with a bottle ready to choke!), burping, how to mix formula properly and how to obtain formula if they can not afford it. I see SO MANY mothers who can't even fix formula right!
And I have never said to a mother who has come to me after stopping breastfeeding for whatever reason they may be, that she needs to start it back up, that what she is doing is horrible, or anything of that sort---it's not my child and it is not my choice. We do STRONGLY encourage all women to breastfeed though, and tell them directly the risks involved in not breastfeeding...just like we explain the risks of vaccines (babies HAVE died) before they vaccinate (since it is a choice as well).
Gosh I hope my posts are not coming across that I am some kind of a**hole! Ekkk. Yes I am very pro-breastfeeding, just like I am pro-car safety (heck we have more people who could care less about car safety than breastfeeding....I could really go into that topic--"oh I was never in a corificeat when I was a baby and I didn't get killed" ughhh I kid you not.) and everything else that benefits children. But I am not a judgemental prick, where I work you can't be like that or no one will respect you, you can't help anyone being disrespectful, no one would come back to see me! LOL
I'll state again that my oldest child was formula fed.
Also, MOST people on here have not called people like me failures, but there has been a post or two that implied very strongly that we are, that we who choose not to breastfeed without a medical reason are inferior parents. Not getting your baby to latch on is not considered a medical reason, so, by that definition, I am inferior.
No, they are not inferior parents. They have chosen an inferior substance to feed their child - but that doesn't make them inferior parents. I feed my kids inferior foods. It doesn't make me a bad mother. And beyond just feeding choices, I have made many a bad decision in my life, or a decision that I should have chosen something else. Does that make me a bad person? Nope! It makes me human. No one here has said you are a bad parent.
If you want to promte breastfeeding, then do some solid worthwhile research into why women do not breastfeed, rather than villifying them. Ask women in an unemotional (although issues about kids are always somewhat emotional) ordered manner through a retrospective research study why they didn't breastfeed and if they are happy w/ their choice. I think we should find out what we could do to help moms make the choice to breastfeed.
Please point out to me where I am "villifying" moms. I think I've gone quite out of my way to make clear that I don't consider moms that give FF evil or bad parents.
And there have been research studies done on this, and there are many things that play into it. Working of course, the sexualization of the breasts that our society has is another. But also the overwhelming message that bottlefeeding a baby is the norm. Bottlefeeding is what is expected. Bottlefeeding is good enough and just as good. When you run into a bump, just give the baby a bottle of formula, it's not a big deal. Well, it is a big deal. The formula companies put a lot of money into making sure people think it's not a big deal. That "breast is best but..."
Again, please read my link earlier in the discussion about "Watch your language". Bottlefeeding is considered the norm, when breastfeeding should be.
Part of this is because of medical professionals who aren't well educated on the subject, or who are sensitive because of their own personal choices. (not saying that everyone is, but that individuals that fit into those categories contribute to issues) The nursery nurses who are quick to put a bottle in the baby's mouth, or so many other incredibly subtle things that are done that undermine a nursing relationship. Drs. who see a small baby (not a losing baby, a consistently small baby) and claim FTT. People who make comments about how women should be ashamed of nursing in public. All of these things contribute to our low breastfeeding rates.
Part of this is because of medical professionals who aren't well educated on the subject, or who are sensitive because of their own personal choices. (not saying that everyone is, but that individuals that fit into those categories contribute to issues) The nursery nurses who are quick to put a bottle in the baby's mouth, or so many other incredibly subtle things that are done that undermine a nursing relationship. Drs. who see a small baby (not a losing baby, a consistently small baby) and claim FTT. People who make comments about how women should be ashamed of nursing in public. All of these things contribute to our low breastfeeding rates.
I have to agree wholeheartedly here. My problems started with the OB staff. I had a wonderful PP experience, except that NO ONE except for one nurse, one night, even tried to help me and my baby with latch problems. They all told me what to do, but not one except for one angel actually tried to help me. When I was admitted I was adamant about not wanting my baby to have bottles, but I spend an unusually long period in PACU. Baby started having a fit because she was hungry and I was talked into allowing her to have a bottle.
Would I have been more successful had the OB staff helped me more? I don't know. Why didn't they help me? I have to assume it is because I am a nurse, that they thought I knew how to follow instructions.
(nothing like seeing that baby propped in the bed or stroller with a bottle ready to choke!),
this statement right here is what everybody is talking about. you are insinuating that all parents who bottle feed are this irresponsible... please stop villifying. as you have said in your previous posts all mothers feel guilty about many things and nurses with attitudes like yours only make them feel worse. i had a very bad experience when i tried to breastfeed my daughter and i was only made to feel worse by a nurse with exactly the same attitude as you have. i am a wonderful mother and my daughter(now 3, no the formula didn't kill her) is very healthy and well rounded. she will continue to be because i take very good care of her and give her the best nutrition that i can now. some people on this thread seem to forget that just because something is not the best that doesn't mean it isn't good at all.
I just meant I'm not going to support them.....like cheering them on, "whoo hoo formula is GREAT, there is nothing better than it!", type of support. That is all I meant. I was responding to another post. I'm not going to go *out of my way* to encourage someone to bottlefeed is what I meant. Hopefully that makes sense now.
And no one was saying that, either, but i certainly do not think that a person who's bottlefeeding needs a nurse who's attitude is "oh you're going to bottlefeed. Uh, nice".
Support would mean education on how to bottle or breastfeed, and if a person chooses to bottlefeed NOT having each sentence directed at them ending with "but breast is best".
Please point out to me where I am "villifying" moms. I think I've gone quite out of my way to make clear that I don't consider moms that give FF evil or bad parents
Many people who are very radically probreastfeeding do villify moms who bottlefeed. I think you have very strong opinions and do not see another point of view on this topic. If you don't villify moms who bottle feed, then that is certainly a point in your favour. You say you do think "guilt" is necessary when discussing this subject w/ parents while I do not. As an OB nurse for 16 years, a nurse for almost 20, and mom of 3 breastfed girls (one of whom was in NICU post arrest for 10 days), I for a variety of reasons just do not agree w/ you. The ads as I said before are way off the mark. Riding a bull and being thrown may likely result in a massive abruption and almost immediate death of the child. The mom would have to feed her child Mr. Clean in a bottle or cyanide for it to be the same. The ads are simply ridiculous. Moms do not need that kind of guilt. How many of us would agree w/ an ad that showed a mom going dressed up and going off to work and leaving her child in the middle of an expressway as a way to promote staying home w/ your kids? The guilt thing is wrong. It has been going on for years. A new approach is needed to promote breatfeeding, because guess what the guilt does not work. It may be what starts people breastfeeding in part, I do not know. It does not keep them doing it and it has not ridded the world of formula. I am sure you are a wonderful person, but I do not agree w/ you. I think you do not and will not see another point of view on this topic. It si very frustrating to me when an LC (ours is great) or a well-meaning relative goes in and lays a guilt trip on my patient and sometimes tries to lay one on me (don't knock on that door) if mom is not nursing or wants to stop. It is her decision and always will be. It is like smoking or eating poorly. Why in the world do people do it? Because they can. I don't feel my job as nurse is to be coercive, but rather to respect them and be supportive once I know they have all the information.
But I want to know how in the world you can say that formula is 4th rate! What are the 2nd and 3rd rate choices? Breastmilk is first choice, formula is second. Saying formula is 4th rate?
Moms expressed milk is second best. (I exclusivly pump milk for my daughter, my little one could not breastfeed unfortunatly) Getting donor milk from a bank (pasturized) is 3rd best. Then formula is 4th best. (Then I think its goats milk, homemade formulas and then cows milk)
Edited to add: I do not want to offend anyone. I am just going by what the Lactation Consultant I see told me.
Sometimes
Its great to see moms overcome BFing difficulties,but its not always possible. As long as mom is feeding her baby, its none of my business what she feeds baby.
You say you do think "guilt" is necessary when discussing this subject w/ parents while I do not.
Actually, I don't think that "guilt" is necessary, but it is unavoidable. Guilt is felt, whether it is intentional or not, whether it is productive to the conversation or not. Have you missed my frequent mentionings that there is absolutely no reason for people to feel "guilty"? You do what you do with the best information at the time, just like our parents didn't use corificeats. Most of us didn't die and I would hope none of our parents feel guilty for not using a product that wasn't known about.
But, you cannot ignore or lie or gloss over about the facts of the impact that breastfeeding has on a child's health potentially. Again, you may have a child who is going to be healthy, no matter whether you feed formula or breastmilk, but you could have one of those children that are on the unlucky side of the statistics, that passes away from SIDS, that gets ALL, that gets type I diabetes, that is hospitalized for a respiratory infection or GI infection. Now, those moms are absolutely not at fault, because no one thing causes it, but if you could lessen the likelihood of having to deal with those issues, many moms would want to do so.
Also, with all the emphasis on breast cancer lately, it's a shame that breastfeeding isn't mentioned. It is even shown to help overcome genetics with the BRC1 and 2 genes. But it's not mentioned for fear out of making moms feel "guilty".
I feel very strongly that you do make a decision about feeding, and then you just need to accept it. What is solved by you feeling guilty? Absolutely nothing, except making you feel defensive and less likely to listen to facts wrt decisions that weren't your own. If you FF in the past for whatever choice, own it, know that it is very true that breastmilk is far superior, but you made a different choice for your own reasons. If it is important to you that breastmilk is better, if you have another child, breastfeed. If you are done having children, you can't change the past, but maybe you can help women successfully breastfeed. (and of course, if it's a medical condition, formula is superior to the other options, no matter what the facts are about breastfeeding and breastmilk)
I haven't read all the posts, but have one comment for Josh. He mentioned his ex-wife. I'd much prefer to see a bottlefed baby than a child of divorce. Did you not work hard enough in your marriage? Do you feel you should be brought to task for failing your baby? OF COURSE NOT! Many things affect our children. In the grand scheme of things, bottle feeding is a bit lower priority than the break up of a family IMHO.
Wow, what a hot topic! Breast vs Bottle always seems to be. The problem is, why should it always BE Breast vs Bottle? Why not Breast and/or Bottle?
I haven't read all the posts either.
My Uncle was heavily involved in breast milk research in the 80's at U of Conn. From a strictly scientific point of view, he felt it was best..however, his emphasis was to be sure to get at least the first couple of weeks of milk in, as that was the best time for antibodies. After that it there didn't seem to be as big a difference. I don't know if further research has changed in that respect or not. And as expensive as formulas are these days, it better by gosh be pretty good stuff! It ain't cheap!
I skimmed all the posts (whew1) and didn't see much of anything on this, so here goes:
I would like to see formula be by prescription only. If a mother chose to formula feed, she would have to meet with a pediatrician and a lactation consultant to ensure she was making an informed consent (in my time as a breastfeeding educator, I can't tell you how many times I heard reasons for bottlefeeding that were complete myths). This, of course, should occur before the baby is even born. For example, the PPD--there are meds that can be taken while breastfeeding. Maybe not the med that works for that particular mother--fine. But lets make sure she has the complete info before she has her baby.
Then, if mom is still going to formula feed, give her a script for it. It makes me sick that there are decent formulas out there -- easy to digest, with little or no pesticides or additives -- but unless your baby has a medical condition, you only get to choose from the bottom of the barrel. HELLO!! Why can't all formula fed babies benefit from high quality formulas? I would also like to see insurance pay for it. This is an artifical means of sustinance--similar to TPN and lipids. The creation of it should be strenuously regulated, there should be contant research to improve it, and the product itself should be paid for by insurance.
Healthy breastmilk is absolutely what is best for the baby. But the baby is part of a dyad. If a mom has sexual abuse issues, for example, breastfeeding may not be what is ultimately best for her OR her baby. Some women find breastfeeding a health means of recovery from abuse; others find it a horrible reminder of abuse. Let's help her discover her options prior to birth, get her any help that she needs, and go from there. Let's make sure that we are trying to do the best for moms and babies, not just give the lip service (yes, breast is best, but how do you do this if you work full time with no pump breaks, and if you can't afford a $300 pump? Let's figure these things out prior to birth.).
So, anyway, to sum up: better prenatal education and screening. Continual improvement of breastfeeding information and education programs. Better quality formula available. By prescription only. Insurance coverage of formula. Healthier babies.
When I'm queen of the world, you all will know it!
marilynmom, LPN, NP
2,155 Posts
I think you made some good points. The message IS getting across, your right, since 70% of mothers are at least starting off with breastfeeding. We need to now learn and help figure out why they stop. Some may choose to stop (and I'm ok with that, at least they started off good an ANY breastfeedng is better than none. We all dont know the reasons they stop....maybe abusive husbands, maybe they simply have no clue what they are doing when it comes to breastfeeding since we dont really have any role models, maybe they are simply stressed out to the max with other responsibility, there are a lot of factors).
Part of it too is us moms are filled with guilt about everything....even when given the facts. I see the facts about vaccines and feel guilty if I vax and guilty if I dont. Feel guilt about letting my kids sometimes watch too much tv, eat too much junk food at times, eat at McDs, whatever. Our lives are filled with guilt it seems.
I've learned a lot from this discussion.