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My ASN nursing program is two years long with LPN/LVN diploma after the first year, I'm in the fall term of my second year and I hold a license in nursing.
I have come to the conclusion that my school isn't hard for the sake of being challenging, its hard for the sake of being near impossible. Last year my school had a 100% pass rate for both the LPN and RN NCLEX, although the majority of our class was a C average. I am going flat out say this pass rate has nothing to do with the quality of my program and everything to do with the unbelievable tolerance and my restraint my peers have in the face of overwhelming amounts of total BS.
I can't depend on most all my instructors for anything. I feel like the butt of some hidden joke that I just can't see. The truth of the matter is, me and my classmates were baited into this program after so many promises on how great the program and its instructors were. We were selected from the best of 500 applicants and went though furious scrutiny to just make it into the program, but as soon as we really took off, we were shafted by our instructors. In a class of all 4.0 students we had around 15 people flunk in the first year, we've probably lost half a dozen this year already.
I basically feel like an auto-didactic along with most of my peers because my nursing education is merely an outlet for my faculty to teach me about their own person anecdotes and opinion on how they think a nurse should act. In the rest of my free time I teach myself real nursing school curriculum to build up a real knowledge base for the NCLEX.
I can't depend on any of our curriculum for any consistency from lecture to lecture or instructor to instructor. If they mess up the lecture notes they blame us for not memorizing the reading. If we memorize the reading we're told we should have stuck with the powerpoint. We have had several tests where over 75% failed and where told it was "obviously the students fault." We find errors in their tests all the time and I would estimate they fix maybe one in ten questions that they got wrong or gave us one correct choice between two right answers and no proof to back one up over the other.
We've all invested 2-3 years of commitment, work, and emotions into passing this program. My instructors know this and only use it as more leverage to set the bar impossibly high. They know we have no choice but to comply and try and stay afloat, because the ONLY thing worse then this program is flunking out and having to waste a whole year and a half(or longer) to roll the dice and risk massive uncertainty on another program. There are no retakes or redos. Its pass/fail with a laughable lettergrade attached as an afterthought.
I understand that certainly life is very hard, indifferent, and not always fair, but this is a binary matter of education and measurable objective skills. It should not be ruled by opinion. The risk-benefit ratio of the input of time vs the output of test scores is resting on the edge of a razorblade and I'm getting burnt out. I'm watching students deteriorate into a potentially dangerous states of mind. Two of my classmates failed for no reason beyond a bad luck of the draw and I struggled to talk them down from suicide. I'm on the brink of contacting an attorney because I'm worried that this program will push my friends into harming themselves. They are flunking people by 0.1% when I could easy browse their test questions and find a margin of error around 5%, not counting the subjective questions on transient nursing rhetoric, oops I mean nursing logic.
I have seen no proof that the methods my school uses to force high NCLEX pass rates is anything more then the most reckless and diluted superficial attempt to mask the symptoms of a problem rather then treating the underlying cause.
I'm afraid to talk about it even here because we're forbidden from speaking up about it and I could be axed in the flinch of an eye for violating conduct codes we're forced to sign, but I've been burning the candle at both ends for so long now and I don't know how to turn the other cheek anymore. This does not make me a better nurse. I can beat my head against a brick wall until the cows come home but at the end of the day I'm unconvinced that near-constant state of hopeless panic facilitates a good learning experience.
I don't know what to do.
Schools are there to do two things. 1) Get more money for the profit margin and 2) help you pass the NCLEX. It sounds to me like they are doing exactly that if they have 500 applicants a year and have a 100% pass rate.
Do schools weed people out if they think they won't be able to pass the NCLEX? Sure they do. A 100% NCLEX pass rate is a great selling point to help the school earn more money.
If they let anyone with a 74.9% slide into the next semester, where would it stop? If that student wasn't able to pass that class, how could they ever possibly pass NCLEX? If I were you and a friend didn't pass by that margin, I would see where they needed help, help them, and let them re-apply to pick up where they left off. If they were truly suicidal, I would help refer them to some outside agency to help them because at that point, it's beyond me.
Case in point, I missed my A last semester by one question on a test. ONE QUESTION. Not a percentage point but less than a 10th of a percentage point. Who's to blame? I am. Not the instructors, not the school, not even the test questions. Me. That's called accepting responsibility for one's own actions which is something we have to do as adult learners.
And, OP, like you said. You googled it. Do other schools really sound any different? You could go to another school and get wrapped up in even more problems or at the very least, run into different issues.
So, I have to agree with CCL RN. As many of the students in my class love to complain and sound just like you, I have a better time of nursing school because I don't focus on blaming or finger pointing. I do what I have to do to get by and stay positive. This is something that I chose to do for myself and my future. It's a short time in the grand scheme of things. If you don't like it, do something else. If you do stick with it, a better attitude will go a long way. Good luck.
I have to agree with the above posts from Catz, CBs, and CCL RN...although mine was labeled as mean haha and not being supportive. It's not about support, it's about constructive criticism. If 1 person passed, everyone CAN pass. I highly doubt they have a bunch of nurses around who just get off on failing people. You say you have great clinical instructors, have you gone to them about this?
It makes me SO mad when people can't just commiserate, and continuously take the instructor's side in a STUDENT forum. Let us have an outlet - please! If you are an RN already and want to get your jollies off complaining about the students - you have your own forum! I hope I'm never so far removed from nursing school after I graduate and become licensed that I forget the negatives of it, or the poor experiences I did have, to openly discuss and advise students in a loving manner. And I love my nursing school, and 90% of my instructors have been fantastic, but I can't deny that there are some problems within our program and curriculum, as there is at every school. I refuse to be a sheep that just says, "Oh well, that's the way it is" and I so dislike those individuals. They are the ones that will go on to work in the hospital that needs an overhaul, but will accept the status quo and won't care to speak up, fight, and inspire their co-workers to elicit change!
This wasn't an arrogant, condescending, or "woe is me" post by the OP. This was someone with legitimate concerns about her program that she communicated in a calm and logical manner.
OP - I understand what you mean when you say that some things are subjective or confusing unless you are in your instructor's head, like the correct way to communicate with your patient, or which teaching point is the most important to make when they both are high up on Maslow's hierarchy.
I also find it absolutely absurd that your instructors refuse to admit their mistakes when presented with evidence, and rely on the textbook to cover their butt. There should not be this idea that the instructors are infallible, especially when it comes to something as simply as correct medical terms. As well, instructors should be supportive of students coming to them with concerns about the exams. Every single course that I have had, my instructors have had course representatives (not necessarily the same students every semester) which meet from 1-3 times a semester with the primary course coordinator and discuss concerns with everything about the course. We are given a chance to provide feedback, we have opportunities to get out of class support with free tutors, and our clinicals have a bit of wiggle room for when it comes to mistakes. You have to do something very, very bad (like almost killing someone bad) to get booted from our program for one mistake. Do they hand out clinical day unsatisfactories like candy? Oh yes, definitely, and I have had a total of 5% deducted from my final grades due to 3 separate unsatisfactories while in nursing school. These were due to mistakes ranging from tardiness to not looking at my patient's arm band after asking them to state name & DOB during med administration.
What you have described is NOT what a normal nursing program should look like, and please don't let these post-grads tell you otherwise. I would recommend that you start keeping track of discrepancies like this, with name, date, and course, so that when you do graduate and pass your NCLEX, you can have the power to do something to change it for incoming nursing students if you wish to fight the good fight on the other side.
Hang in there, though - you deserve it! Then do your best to dissuade other students from applying to the program on the down low, or go public with the information with a group of your peers post-graduation. That's the best you can do at this point, in my opinion.
It makes me SO mad when people can't just commiserate, and continuously take the instructor's side in a STUDENT forum. Let us have an outlet - please! If you are an RN already and want to get your jollies off complaining about the students - you have your own forum!This wasn't an arrogant, condescending, or "woe is me" post by the OP. This was someone with legitimate concerns about her program that she communicated in a calm and logical manner.
OP - I understand what you mean when you say that some things are subjective or confusing unless you are in your instructor's head, like the correct way to communicate with your patient, or which teaching point is the most important to make when they both are high up on Maslow's hierarchy.
Hang in there, though - you deserve it! Then do your best to dissuade other students from applying to the program on the down low. That's the best you can do at this point, in my opinion.
I'm sorry that you are SO mad however I am a student currently in nursing school. I do not need to "just commiserate" because I don't agree with being negative and complaining, which is how I understood the OP's post to read. You have your opinion and I have my opinion and both are okay. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I'm sorry that you are SO mad however I am a student currently in nursing school. I do not need to "just commiserate" because I don't agree with being negative and complaining, which is how I understood the OP's post to read. You have your opinion and I have my opinion and both are okay. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I'm glad that you will accept problems in your nursing school (and most likely your future place of employment) without speaking up, but that's not for all of us. Don't act like the OP is being unreasonable and unnecessarily negative when you didn't address any of her concerns. I'm sorry that you missed your A by a single test question, but that has nothing to do with the OP. I bet you'd have cause to be upset if you missed your A because the test material you learned was flawed, not representative of the material on the exam, or you did not have an opportunity to confront your professors when there was an obvious flaw in their test questions.
And yes, I do get mad when anyone, licensed or not, acts like students don't have a right to be frustrated or point out the flaws in their program.
Schools are there to do two things. 1) Get more money for the profit margin and 2) help you pass the NCLEX. It sounds to me like they are doing exactly that if they have 500 applicants a year and have a 100% pass rate.Do schools weed people out if they think they won't be able to pass the NCLEX? Sure they do. A 100% NCLEX pass rate is a great selling point to help the school earn more money.
My personal thought is that more weeding should be done in the admissions process so there's fewer students who fail out. The more students fail out mean that there's that many semesters of tuition money that's just been lost. I recently graduated and my cohort of 4o-some lost two members - one due to willful stupidity, one because they simply couldn't hack it. If a cohort loses half its members in the first term, the school is doing something wrong.
It makes me SO mad when people can't just commiserate, and continuously take the instructor's side in a STUDENT forum. Let us have an outlet - please! If you are an RN already and want to get your jollies off complaining about the students - you have your own forum! I hope I'm never so far removed from nursing school after I graduate and become licensed that I forget the negatives of it, or the poor experiences I did have, to openly discuss and advise students in a loving manner. And I love my nursing school, and 90% of my instructors have been fantastic, but I can't deny that there are some problems within our program and curriculum, as there is at every school. I refuse to be a sheep that just says, "Oh well, that's the way it is" and I so dislike those individuals. They are the ones that will go on to work in the hospital that needs an overhaul, but will accept the status quo and won't care to speak up, fight, and inspire their co-workers to elicit change!This wasn't an arrogant, condescending, or "woe is me" post by the OP. This was someone with legitimate concerns about her program that she communicated in a calm and logical manner.
I have to echo CBsMommy on this one. I've found that the amount a poster in the student sections of allnurses.com complains about their own program is inversely proportional to their GPA. If you're been around here a while, you get rather jaded to long screeds about various programs. However, since the OP was thoughtful enough to use paragraphs and had obviously made it through some other academic program as evidenced by their use of vocabulary (though in a somewhat odd manner...), I was willing to actually read the whole post. kgh31386's post was well written in that it asked for clarification in a neutral manner, and the OP's reply revealed that while a few of her complaints are actual non-issues, there are serious structural problems with the program he or she attends.
I did what I had to do to pass (easy) and didn't spend ANY time online rambling on about fault and blame. There. There's my secret.Again, if you interviewed the students who failed my program, they'd say all the things you said. And yet, I passed and didn't find my program to be anything at all like the failing students had described. Funny how that is...
I was actually looking for an answer to a critical thinking question that involved a set of exacerbating circumstances. I find it peculiar that you have found enough time to browse forums and demean others yet you lack the ability to read information in its entirety and provide specifics. I've never spoken up about this before even after watching unfair events run their course and I speak mostly in the defense of my peers who were shafted, I'm a pretty lousy "white knight" because most of the damage has been done.
I am in an RN program that is very difficult. It has an extremely high pass rate and that is what's most important. Sure the stress level is high, but nursing can be very stressful. In my mind if I can pass this program, I can pass the NCLEX and that is the main goal. If you don't pass the NCLEX, then it was all a waste. In nursing we students as well as nurses and the professors (who by the way are nurses and have worked in the field) we have to do what we call critical thinking. Why can't you go on your class web site and post questions about the material where you are confused. Someone will respond and a teacher or two my even respond. This would be getting the support and knowledge from your peers who are in the class. Also when you take the time to explain it to someone else, you know you have it down. Instead of putting your focus on the bad and neg. take the time to figure out how to make it better. Good luck
Schools are there to do two things. 1) Get more money for the profit margin and 2) help you pass the NCLEX. It sounds to me like they are doing exactly that if they have 500 applicants a year and have a 100% pass rate.Do schools weed people out if they think they won't be able to pass the NCLEX? Sure they do. A 100% NCLEX pass rate is a great selling point to help the school earn more money.
If they let anyone with a 74.9% slide into the next semester, where would it stop? If that student wasn't able to pass that class, how could they ever possibly pass NCLEX? If I were you and a friend didn't pass by that margin, I would see where they needed help, help them, and let them re-apply to pick up where they left off. If they were truly suicidal, I would help refer them to some outside agency to help them because at that point, it's beyond me.
Case in point, I missed my A last semester by one question on a test. ONE QUESTION. Not a percentage point but less than a 10th of a percentage point. Who's to blame? I am. Not the instructors, not the school, not even the test questions. Me. That's called accepting responsibility for one's own actions which is something we have to do as adult learners.
And, OP, like you said. You googled it. Do other schools really sound any different? You could go to another school and get wrapped up in even more problems or at the very least, run into different issues.
So, I have to agree with CCL RN. As many of the students in my class love to complain and sound just like you, I have a better time of nursing school because I don't focus on blaming or finger pointing. I do what I have to do to get by and stay positive. This is something that I chose to do for myself and my future. It's a short time in the grand scheme of things. If you don't like it, do something else. If you do stick with it, a better attitude will go a long way. Good luck.
I have to agree with the above posts from Catz, CBs, and CCL RN...although mine was labeled as mean haha and not being supportive. It's not about support, it's about constructive criticism. If 1 person passed, everyone CAN pass. I highly doubt they have a bunch of nurses around who just get off on failing people. You say you have great clinical instructors, have you gone to them about this?
I can't really respond to someone who doesn't read my posts. I never for one second doubted that nursing is stressful, and I already outlined the fact that most of my instructors are not a reliable resource for questions and help. Its very frustrating. One time I actually went and visited my old A&P instructor because I was getting nowhere with the staff, and it still amazes me that I can pick any subject out of our giant old book and she can lean into it and give me the explanation I need, whereas my instructors pick a set of individual topics from our book and that's it. They refuse to touch anything slightly outside their scope of teaching and it throws me completely off when they can't crossover grounded concepts and points with even basic details like commonly used pharmaceuticals. For one drug I'll have 3 different interpretations of what that drug is and used for and if I relied solely on the word of my teachers, you could never guess they were the same drug without the name. My peers and I lean very heavily on each other to fill in the massive holes in our comprehension, but sometimes you just need guidance, and you shouldn't have to take two hours to answer a question that could have been addressed in five minutes.
My clinical instructor this term is great, but they are new to the program so they are limited in their influence and understandably don't want to rock the boat.
It makes me SO mad when people can't just commiserate, and continuously take the instructor's side in a STUDENT forum. Let us have an outlet - please! If you are an RN already and want to get your jollies off complaining about the students - you have your own forum! I hope I'm never so far removed from nursing school after I graduate and become licensed that I forget the negatives of it, or the poor experiences I did have, to openly discuss and advise students in a loving manner. And I love my nursing school, and 90% of my instructors have been fantastic, but I can't deny that there are some problems within our program and curriculum, as there is at every school. I refuse to be a sheep that just says, "Oh well, that's the way it is" and I so dislike those individuals. They are the ones that will go on to work in the hospital that needs an overhaul, but will accept the status quo and won't care to speak up, fight, and inspire their co-workers to elicit change!This wasn't an arrogant, condescending, or "woe is me" post by the OP. This was someone with legitimate concerns about her program that she communicated in a calm and logical manner.
OP - I understand what you mean when you say that some things are subjective or confusing unless you are in your instructor's head, like the correct way to communicate with your patient, or which teaching point is the most important to make when they both are high up on Maslow's hierarchy.
I also find it absolutely absurd that your instructors refuse to admit their mistakes when presented with evidence, and rely on the textbook to cover their butt. There should not be this idea that the instructors are infallible, especially when it comes to something as simply as correct medical terms. As well, instructors should be supportive of students coming to them with concerns about the exams. Every single course that I have had, my instructors have had course representatives (not necessarily the same students every semester) which meet from 1-3 times a semester with the primary course coordinator and discuss concerns with everything about the course. We are given a chance to provide feedback, we have opportunities to get out of class support with free tutors, and our clinicals have a bit of wiggle room for when it comes to mistakes. You have to do something very, very bad (like almost killing someone bad) to get booted from our program for one mistake. Do they hand out clinical day unsatisfactories like candy? Oh yes, definitely, and I have had a total of 5% deducted from my final grades due to 3 separate unsatisfactories while in nursing school. These were due to mistakes ranging from tardiness to not looking at my patient's arm band after asking them to state name & DOB during med administration.
What you have described is NOT what a normal nursing program should look like, and please don't let these post-grads tell you otherwise. I would recommend that you start keeping track of discrepancies like this, with name, date, and course, so that when you do graduate and pass your NCLEX, you can have the power to do something to change it for incoming nursing students if you wish to fight the good fight on the other side.
Hang in there, though - you deserve it! Then do your best to dissuade other students from applying to the program on the down low, or go public with the information with a group of your peers post-graduation. That's the best you can do at this point, in my opinion.
Thank you!! It does a lot to know someones listening. My point has been grounded on the question of where does one draw the line between what works and what is ethical. I hate it when people just reduce it to "Suck it up or quit". This is not a job, this is an education. This is my entire life. We have sacrificed our work, families, relationships, and even our health to keep up with ungrounded demands that are unsupported and totally ridiculous. This isn't a demand for coddling, its about fairness and abuse of power.
My personal thought is that more weeding should be done in the admissions process so there's fewer students who fail out. The more students fail out mean that there's that many semesters of tuition money that's just been lost. I recently graduated and my cohort of 4o-some lost two members - one due to willful stupidity, one because they simply couldn't hack it. If a cohort loses half its members in the first term, the school is doing something wrong.I have to echo CBsMommy on this one. I've found that the amount a poster in the student sections of allnurses.com complains about their own program is inversely proportional to their GPA. If you're been around here a while, you get rather jaded to long screeds about various programs. However, since the OP was thoughtful enough to use paragraphs and had obviously made it through some other academic program as evidenced by their use of vocabulary (though in a somewhat odd manner...), I was willing to actually read the whole post. kgh31386's post was well written in that it asked for clarification in a neutral manner, and the OP's reply revealed that while a few of her complaints are actual non-issues, there are serious structural problems with the program he or she attends.
I couldn't agree more about the admissions process. We went through heavy scrutiny to get here to prove we take things seriously. However, what is going on here is simply a waste of potential in my opinion. Good students who would make fantastic nurses are getting tossed aside because a lack of coordination, direction, and instruction from our teachers. I don't understand our programs budget and I guess I'm interested to know how much it worth to dump so many good students over keeping a spotless pass rate. GPA in my program is quite meaningless, though I struck an average B, my biased impressions from the HESI was that GPA was a terrible predictor of comprehension and application. Nearly everyone I know who got their license over the summer was a B or C student. This year I do not know of one person who currently has an A, and we've already lost a handful of students this year who had A's last year.
Thanks for all your responses, I will consider all the advice, even the condescending stuff from the Super nurses.
just let me start by saying that in my last post I wanted to say that our school has an extremely high pass rate for the NCLEX. Also I am currently a nursing student. I think it to great to be an advocate for yourself, but it is how you do it. I have seen students yell at the professors and last year the school had to lock all the doors except for one because a teacher was threatened. As a future nurse we have to look at the big picture. Get all the facts, come up with a solution or at least a direction, then present the problem. No whinning, no complaining. Nursing school is very very difficult. It just gets more and more difficult. If you want things to change then play the game, get the education and put yourself in the position where you can impliment that change. Until then suck it up, and don't give up.
It makes me SO mad when people can't just commiserate, and continuously take the instructor's side in a STUDENT forum. Let us have an outlet - please! If you are an RN already and want to get your jollies off complaining about the students - you have your own forum! I hope I'm never so far removed from nursing school after I graduate and become licensed that I forget the negatives of it, or the poor experiences I did have, to openly discuss and advise students in a loving manner.
I'm glad that you will accept problems in your nursing school (and most likely your future place of employment) without speaking up, but that's not for all of us.
I think you should calm down just a bit. Who here is "complaining" about students? They are simply not having sympathy. And your responses are very judgmental. How is it that you can tell that the other poster will be accepting any problems in their school or workplace? They might not have any problem. You basically called them weak. And don't tell me I'm far removed from nursing based on the fact that I provided neutral feedback on a couple of possible solutions. It's not about taking anyone's "side". And so what if people do side with the instructors? I was simply asking for facts about what the options are for the OP. And it's true that several times students will complain about unfairness when in reality the instructor has done nothing wrong. There's no rule stating where an instructor must get test info from. There's no limit on how much they can test you over.
Then do your best to dissuade other students from applying to the program on the down low, or go public with the information with a group of your peers post-graduation. That's the best you can do at this point, in my opinion.
If you do slander a school who has 500+ applicants and a high NCLEX pass rate...I see nothing but bad things for you with regards to job prospects local and distant. Most of the time when you apply to hospitals (regardless of location), you speak with recruiters who will probably learn all about your slandering of the school. Not to mention, if they are truly mad they could sue you for public slander. In my opinion, that's a bad idea.
Ok, so I'll be honest first by saying I only read about 3/4ths of the way down the first page, so some (or all ) of this may have already been said.
First of all, you are where you are right now. Yes, it is possible that they promised the moon and won't (or can't) deliver. Now you can either a) make a change and thus have the right to gripe about where you've been (or educate prospective students on realistic expectations of your previous program), or b) figure out how to make it work.
Granted, changing programs is a mountain all it's own, in regards to time, money, frustration, etc. But so is what you're doing right now. So, pick which mountain you want to move, commit to it, and don't stop until you're done. One thing I have learned, however (through 2 previous BS degrees, 1 failed marriage, 2 successful startup companies and 1 failed one), is that AFTER you've made your commitment, reminding yourself and everyone around you how awful it is only sets you up for failure. It's ok that you feel that certain things aren't ideal; acknowledge those thoughts and briskly send them on their way out of your mind.
Hang in there. Things DO get better. Keep your eye on the prize. And if all else fails, watch any of the Rocky movies and listen to "Eye of the Tiger" in your car on the way to school/clinicals. :)
Sending good thoughts your way. :)
jen
PS - By all means, vent when you need to - it is the only way to keep your sanity sometimes. But if you don't want every sentence scrutinized and debated, just say you're venting. Lord knows we all need it sometimes! :)
I think you should calm down just a bit. Who here is "complaining" about students? They are simply not having sympathy. And your responses are very judgmental. How is it that you can tell that the other poster will be accepting any problems in their school or workplace? They might not have any problem. You basically called them weak. And don't tell me I'm far removed from nursing based on the fact that I provided neutral feedback on a couple of possible solutions. It's not about taking anyone's "side". And so what if people do side with the instructors? I was simply asking for facts about what the options are for the OP. And it's true that several times students will complain about unfairness when in reality the instructor has done nothing wrong. There's no rule stating where an instructor must get test info from. There's no limit on how much they can test you over.If you do slander a school who has 500+ applicants and a high NCLEX pass rate...I see nothing but bad things for you with regards to job prospects local and distant. Most of the time when you apply to hospitals (regardless of location), you speak with recruiters who will probably learn all about your slandering of the school. Not to mention, if they are truly mad they could sue you for public slander. In my opinion, that's a bad idea.
you can not slander with the truth....
catz123
41 Posts
I am in an RN program that is very difficult. It has an extremely high pass rate and that is what's most important. Sure the stress level is high, but nursing can be very stressful. In my mind if I can pass this program, I can pass the NCLEX and that is the main goal. If you don't pass the NCLEX, then it was all a waste. In nursing we students as well as nurses and the professors (who by the way are nurses and have worked in the field) we have to do what we call critical thinking. Why can't you go on your class web site and post questions about the material where you are confused. Someone will respond and a teacher or two my even respond. This would be getting the support and knowledge from your peers who are in the class. Also when you take the time to explain it to someone else, you know you have it down. Instead of putting your focus on the bad and neg. take the time to figure out how to make it better. Good luck