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Bathing Classmates and Other Personal Boundaries?

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by brownhairedgal brownhairedgal (New Member) New Member

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sharpeimom has 20 years experience and specializes in ortho, hospice volunteer, psych,.

1 Follower; 39,614 Visitors; 2,452 Posts

many, if not most, of the indignant posts seem like anything from fabrications and exaggerations to outright lies. reminds me of when i was in third and fourth grade and when one of told a story or shared an experience, everyone else had to try to top it. i'd be interested to know how many of these assertions are substantiated and how many are merely rumor.

preparing for the brick bats...

kathy

shar pei mom:paw::paw:

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LA_StudentNurse has 10 years experience and specializes in Med Surg, ICU, home&pub health, pvt duty.

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I've read a few threads on this and honestly I am shocked. I was unaware that students had to practice anything on each other that was invasive or required them to wear any clothing besides scrubs or other professional attire. This concept did not exist for me until I read threads in which people spoke about these practices.

I do not think it is right for students to have to wear clothing that exposes them, even if it is "just" shorts/bathing suit/bra/sports bra/tank top. [..[]

P.S. This is not about a male/female thing, as I think either gender would bother me just as much.

Ditto....Intelligent and articulate. :yeah: I could not have said it better. Could the school not afford practice maninequins?

Best to all; stay safe and healthy :redbeathe

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Moogie specializes in Gerontology, nursing education.

1 Article; 22,273 Visitors; 1,796 Posts

>

As a nurse and as an instructor, you must know that the difference is "consent." If someone wants to volunteer, so be it. I have no doubt that there will be plenty of students willing to volunteer more than once. But, if not, then the college needs to plunk down a few bucks on a SIM. The reason someone gives for not wanting to participate is irrelevant- and to inquire can be very close to the legal line.

As a nurse, I have nothing to stand on- I'm not even in my first class yet; but as a 40 year old professional woman who has been a community college teacher for 17 years, let me speak as an instructor. Learning objectives can be met in many ways. Why not have both options? Why not have a SIM in the classroom, and allow students to practice on each other if they choose.

I have a second idea, let's not give them grief for opting to do one over the other. This thread reminds me a bit of old school hazing.

In all honesty, the school at which I taught had budget issues. The skills lab was so poorly supplied that students could not even practice spiking IVs so I highly doubt they could have justified spending money on a simulator. I will tell you---the situation with the poorly stocked skills lab has made me VERY aware of things to look for when applying for my next position. I really enjoyed teaching skills lab but hated trying to deal with outdated equipment and the general lack of adequate supplies.

Additionally, the student with whom I felt irritated was very manipulative and did several things to faculty, including myself. I felt emotionally drained and violated over the things she did and, when I left that job, I wondered if I ever would return to teaching because the experience was so bad. A lot of people here talk about how one instructor can destroy a student---let me assure you all that it goes both ways. I was able to put the experience into perspective and learn from it but at the time, it was horrible. I felt hazed, too, and ended up getting hazed in other ways as well. It was not a healthy system.

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onepowerfullady is a LPN and specializes in Hospice Care, Med/Surg.

1 Article; 4,787 Visitors; 76 Posts

We have one the best teaching schools in the US here in Mississippi and it is understood that you will be touched or examined by a student, however it is done in the presence of a licensed healthcare provider. I have been in the position of being looked at by one of those students and know how the patient feels. We all have to learn some kind of way and want our patients to be comfy with us when we want to practice on them. However, everyone has their feelings about certain issues....

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There's a non fiction book called "A Taste of Your Own Medicine." Can't think of the author. About a doctor who developed cancer and had to go through a process he had only seen from one side of the bed. It opened up his eyes. It was made into a movie called "The Doctor." Worth seeing. At the end of the film, this doctor took his medical students, had them wear gowns, and go through the same kinds of tests that they regularly order their patients to go through. It's obvious that these medical students feel embarrassed, even humiliated as they stand there in their gowns, some gowns barely covering them, waiting for their tests. It would have been also valuable to have those administering the tests, go through the tests they administer in the same way they administer them.

I'm not in favor of humiliating people, doctors, nurse or patients. And I can see the nurse point of view as to why you don't want to do procedures on your classmates or have them done to you. I can empathize. But I'm beginning to think that these "old fashioned" instructors in the "old" days did perhaps realize somethings that we've forgotten. Nothing -- no textbook, no lecture, no practice, can replace personal experience. I can also understand patients, who read threads like this, and think, wow! -- how can nurses feel this way about their bodies,their boundaries, their personal values, etc. -- and sometimes ignore or be insensitive to their patients? I can see both sides. And I do believe that young nurses especially, who have led relatively healthy lives and had little hospital experience -- could benefit from spending a day or two experiencing what it feels like to be in their patients' shoes. Reading texts, classroom lecture and discussion, clinicals -- all essential for producing a fine nurse or cna. But add personal experience and you get a maturity and empathy that cannot be substituted by anything else.

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nursel56 has 25+ years experience and specializes in peds//ambulatory care/HH-private duty.

1 Follower; 43,340 Visitors; 6,653 Posts

I don't believe them. Sorry, but I don't.

That kind of stuff in this society would not fly. I want to know the school and their number and I'll call them myself to confirm before I believe it.

I'm with you. As for the "old" way of doing things supposedly involving nurses practicing enemas, breast exams, etc. on each other- as I said before - until someone comes up with a credible personal (or a close friend/relative) experience with that, it goes right into the nursing urban legend file. I know 1975 (when I graduated) is not too far back in the eons of time, but most of our instructors had some serious nursing mileage behind them, not one ever mentioned anything remotely like that ever happening- not even when we practiced on each other and some people objected to it.

I think it was the obese girl who objected. Also this guy named Eddie who was dating this girl named Theresa who now had a crush on Roger. And Cynthia was p.o.- ed at all of them. My clinical group was like freakin' Peyton Place. Thank God we only did bed baths and vital signs.

Edited by nursel56

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Moogie specializes in Gerontology, nursing education.

1 Article; 22,273 Visitors; 1,796 Posts

Out of curiosity, a question for those who object to students performing bed baths or other cares or doing invasive procedures (injections, IVs, NG tubes) on each other:

Do you have similar objections to students practicing physical assessment on each other---assuming, of course that no one does a genital, rectal or breast exam? Do you feel uncomfortable with students checking lung sounds and bowel sounds on each other or does that also constitute a possible violation of personal boundaries?

BTW, it WAS an interesting day in skills lab when we all passed around a soft plastic model of male testicles so that everyone could palpate for lumps and abnormalities. :eek:

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4,814 Visitors; 188 Posts

I'm with you. As for the "old" way of doing things supposedly involving nurses practicing enemas, breast exams, etc. on each other- as I said before - until someone comes up with a credible personal (or a close friend/relative) experience with that, it goes right into the nursing urban legend file. I know 1975 (when I graduated) is not too far back in the eons of time, but most of our instructors had some serious nursing mileage behind them, not one ever mentioned anything remotely like that ever happening- not even when we practiced on each other and some people objected to it.

I think it was the obese girl who objected. Also this guy named Eddie who was dating this girl named Theresa who now had a crush on Roger. And Cynthia was p.o.- ed at all of them. My clinical group was like freakin' Peyton Place. Thank God we only did bed baths and vital signs.

One of the nurses at my school says they practiced this way. I think it was catheterization. My school does not do this. We practiced vital signs and physical assessment - clothed - on each other but that is it.

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Something to think about, people who are saying we need to "see how the patients feel going through this." If I remember correctly, were doing these things to improve their health and well being, to HELP them. Therefore even a student "getting in the patients position" I don't think could still understand what the patient is going through. Like you always hear, you don't know how anyone perceives anything, except for how you do.

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sharpeimom has 20 years experience and specializes in ortho, hospice volunteer, psych,.

1 Follower; 39,614 Visitors; 2,452 Posts

something to think about, people who are saying we need to "see how the patients feel going through this." if i remember correctly, were doing these things to improve their health and well being, to help them. therefore even a student "getting in the patients position" i don't think could still understand what the patient is going through. like you always hear, you don't know how anyone perceives anything, except for how you do.

what ever happened to empathy?

kathy

shar pei mom:paw::paw:

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florydory specializes in ALL (as a CNA).

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I just want to know what happened with bathing "dummy dolls" ? Did they do away with them or what?

"Clinicals" is where you are suppose to learn hands on training with real people.

Edited by florydory
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2,383 Visitors; 121 Posts

what ever happened to empathy?

kathy

shar pei mom:paw::paw:

i think you got the wrong idea from my post, maybe i didn't word it right. what i mean is what the patients go through doesn't compare to us practicing on each other, we can't understand what they're going through unless we have actually been there ourselves. i don't really know how else to say it, but not having empathy is far from what i am trying to say.

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