I feel like this question as been abused over time but I think in nursing school I was taught to respect my position and the importance of nursing care in patient's outcomes. Although I respect the doctor tremendously, should I consider myself an equal? Or a subordinate? I feel like it matters in terms of nurse to patient interaction. I do have patients who value my logic and thought processes but also who think I am the doctor's lackey. I think to be a nurse you have to have humility and for one's ego to be set aside because our decisions do require medical supervision. And I don't have problems being humble.
I still consider myself a new-ish nurse with a lot to learn about nursing. I consider myself competent with a commitment to learning. I am still working on confidence building.
Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
I feel like this question as been abused over time but I think in nursing school I was taught to respect my position and the importance of nursing care in patient's outcomes. Although I respect the doctor tremendously, should I consider myself an equal? Or a subordinate? I feel like it matters in terms of nurse to patient interaction. I do have patients who value my logic and thought processes but also who think I am the doctor's lackey. I think to be a nurse you have to have humility and for one's ego to be set aside because our decisions do require medical supervision. And I don't have problems being humble.
I still consider myself a new-ish nurse with a lot to learn about nursing. I consider myself competent with a commitment to learning. I am still working on confidence building.
Thoughts?
I think you're comparing apples to oranges.
Are doctors and lawyers equal? How about doctors and plumbers? You might think plumbers were more valuable if your toilet was backed up and you had sewage overflowing into your house. Are nurses equal to paralegals? CPAs? Firefighters? I guess it would depend upon whether your house was on fire or the IRS was auditing you.
Nurses, contrary to popular opinion, are not subordinate to doctors -- we're in a different chain of command. We're all valuable members of the same health care team.
Of course not. Most nursing programs are two years long. Doctors have to do four years of undergrad, then another four years of medical school (which is waaaay more competitive/cut throat than nursing school), and then usually 3-7 years of residency. Just the differences in the amount of schooling shows they are far from equal. Technically, nurses are subordinates of doctors, yes, but this isn't a knock/insult to them. Doctors are the ones who write all the orders and really have the final say over everything that happens. Everybody is really a subordinate of the doctor- PA's, NP's, pharmacists, physical therapists, nurses, respiratory therapists, dietary, etc.
You are exactly right as the flow of work proceeds. Every professional has the right to review the orders for accuracy and applicability to their particular patients and ask for clarification for any questionable orders.
Don't entertain these convos. Who has time for that silliness? These are just people who don't know what they're talking about and are just looking to irk someone. Let 'em find someone else to mess with.
If you personally don't feel good about what you're doing with your life that's an entirely separate issue than the differing roles of doctors and nurses.
No doctors can't do everything a nurse does. You just have to spend a day in the ICU to know that. They haven't a clue how to work pumps, operate CVVH, the IABP or the therapeutic hypothermia. Just recently I was in the ICU and my patient was crashing and needed a blood transfusion. I had the blood running at 999 on the pump because his central line was sluggish and even with a pressure bag it wasn't running fast enough. This doctor assumed he knew more than me and could fix it even though I specifically told him that he's wasting valuable time by messing with the pressure bag. He insisted and basically shoved me out of the way, only to completely mess up the blood bag so you could no longer see if the drip chamber was dripping. I knew it just by looking at it because I've been a nurse for 30 years. Of course we ended up putting it back on the pump at 999. He sheepishly walked away at that point. That nonsense makes me so mad. I know everything there is to know about getting IVs to work and it irks me when some man has to "well actually" me.
But, I contend, these adjectives need to be removed from the conversation concerning the relationship between the nurse and the physician.
I'll finish with this quote from Brian Secemsky, MD: "The greatest challenge and the ultimate goal is to create a friendly and personal environment where nurses and doctors are able to question each other's decision-making without fearing an angry or defensive response. Even the greatest nurses and best-trained physicians make mistakes. In order to mitigate these potential medical errors, nurses and doctors must obtain a level of communication where it is okay to question a medical decision or provide productive feedback on any aspect of patient care."
Are plumbers equal to electricians? Hard to compare.
The way I see it you have to compare individual education and experience in order to compare. In general, physicians have more education than the typical floor nurse but not every nurse is a floor nurse.
You are not equal in knowledge by a long shot and if you even remotely think that, youve got a huge ego and wildly out of touch.
Thing about nurses and docs is that we are much more expendable that doctors. So while we are not necessarily subordinates, if theres an issue between a nurse and a doctor...well administration wont exactly be lining up to save our 20-something an hr wage over the docs theyre shelling out several hundred thousands a year for
You are not equal in knowledge by a long shot and if you even remotely think that, youve got a huge ego and wildly out of touch.
Thing about nurses and docs is that we are much more expendable that doctors. So while we are not necessarily subordinates, if theres an issue between a nurse and a doctor...well administration wont exactly be lining up to save our 20-something an hr wage over the docs theyre shelling out several hundred thousands a year for
True. I mean I guess it is okay to be a subordinate. I think I over estimated the role of the nurse as like I said in nursing school as much as we are the patient's advocate/first line of defense, it doesn't always feel that way in actuality.
In all my years of healthcare, I have ALWAYS been an advocate of the patient-always.
I remember my first patient refusing further treatment and a physician attempt to persuade a patient to go through with the surgery; I stood by and stated "she has refused the procedure, after your explanation. Thank you." I'm sure the physician didn't appreciate it; however my patient had every right was lucid and desired her wishes to be carried out.
Working in Emergnecy Nursing, every shift I'm advocating; especially when cultural cues as well as holistic care are not identified by the medical team; I prevented a R/O appy pathway because the pt had a known case of constipation and the young female child was uncomfortable with the male physical touching her-I got the cue and the x-ray and constipation protocol worked out just fine.
Do physicians always listen? Not always; however with time and demonstration of your skills, most physicians learn to listen to nurses-especially when they find out that their text-book narrowmindness doesn't compare to a nurse who has a vast amount of experiences and wholistic care at a diagnosis.
Well, sure. They are legally allowed to do anything a nurse can do. Doesn't mean they will, or want to. Therefore, there will always be nurses. One isn't less than or greater than the other. They're entirely different roles.
In one unit I worked in - PICU...Only a Nurse
Or respiratory therapist was allowed, by policy to "watch" a patient in a vent. It always explained that the doctors didn't have the same knowledge on how to manage the vent. I know that seems weird given that the doctors wrote the vent orders, but they were not knowledgeable on how
to operate the vent or the IV pumps for that matter. Anesthesiologists the exception.
I am sure most nurses with experience can attest that the doctors have no clue (some know more than others) as to how to do the things that nurses do. It's not their job or their role to do so. Therefore, we are NOT interchangable. NOT equal, but not less or more. Does that make sense? As others have said, it takes the whole team to care for patients, including housekeeping staff. (Sometimes I wonder if we need all the administrators though!!!! Hee hee)
In all my years of healthcare, I have ALWAYS been an advocate of the patient-always.
I remember my first patient refusing further treatment and a physician attempt to persuade a patient to go through with the surgery; I stood by and stated "she has refused the procedure, after your explanation. Thank you." I'm sure the physician didn't appreciate it; however my patient had every right was lucid and desired her wishes to be carried out.
Working in Emergnecy Nursing, every shift I'm advocating; especially when cultural cues as well as holistic care are not identified by the medical team; I prevented a R/O appy pathway because the pt had a known case of constipation and the young female child was uncomfortable with the male physical touching her-I got the cue and the x-ray and constipation protocol worked out just fine.
Do physicians always listen? Not always; however with time and demonstration of your skills, most physicians learn to listen to nurses-especially when they find out that their text-book narrowmindness doesn't compare to a nurse who has a vast amount of experiences and wholistic care at a diagnosis.
They learn-eventually.
Over the years, I've had a number of doctors tell me that nurses had saved their butts on several occasions. The experienced physicians know to listen to the nurses who have a concern about a patient.
By that same token, I've learned an infinite amount of information that contributed to my practice from doctors.
Ruby Vee, BSN
17 Articles; 14,051 Posts
I think you're comparing apples to oranges.
Are doctors and lawyers equal? How about doctors and plumbers? You might think plumbers were more valuable if your toilet was backed up and you had sewage overflowing into your house. Are nurses equal to paralegals? CPAs? Firefighters? I guess it would depend upon whether your house was on fire or the IRS was auditing you.
Nurses, contrary to popular opinion, are not subordinate to doctors -- we're in a different chain of command. We're all valuable members of the same health care team.