Are FNP salaries in family practice really this low?

eCCU · Dec 27, 2014

I really don't understand the vitriol or superior attitude about B&M programs vs online programs. I went to a B&M program for my MSN, but honestly, what's the difference with "online" programs except that you don't sit there at lectures? I barely went to lectures anyhow - I don't find them useful, my teachers sent out the slides in advances, I went when needed for exams or if I had an issue with something. Online is just a delivery method like classroom teaching or anything else. You still have to do clinicals, physical exam and assessment etc in person for the required number of hours. Just another case of nurses (or NPs) fighting amongst ourselves instead of focusing on things we can and should change.

Agree the top nursing programs offer online NP programs these include. ....Johns Hopkins, Columbia, Vanderbilt, UCLA and many more. .... so.... can we stop this unattractive behavior and try to improve the nursing situation? Thank you. ..

allnurses Guide · Dec 27, 2014

You still have to do clinicals, physical exam and assessment etc in person for the required number of hours. Just another case of nurses (or NPs) fighting amongst ourselves instead of focusing on things we can and should change.

Actually for some of these programs there is no required campus/skills/assessment time. And the clinical time is dictated by the student not the program with minimal oversight.

Again, some programs, not all.

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automotiveRN67 · Dec 27, 2014

Actually for some of these programs there is no required campus/skills/assessment time. And the clinical time is dictated by the student not the program with minimal oversight.
Again, some programs, not all.
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When I made my comment, I was speaking from real-world experience about online education.

I am a bit of a hypocrite. I went to an online program, and found the quality to be very low. This was a reputable state university.

Their goal was to keep you enrolled. Period. That's what pays their bills.

Never stepped foot on campus. Didn't complete one skills check. No auditor ever came to assess my clinical site.

I found it very challenging to get real clinical hours. Every physician or NP I knew was busy. I had to cut deals to get what I needed. I could see where someone might "cheat" to get the hours they need.

Believe me. This will not be good for our profession.

llisamar · Dec 27, 2014

I work in DC at a Federally qualified health center that employs NPs starting salary for new grads is 75K. The former FQHC I was employed at started NPs at 85K.

Jules A, MSN · Dec 27, 2014

Agree the top nursing programs offer online NP programs these include. ....Johns Hopkins, Columbia, Vanderbilt, UCLA and many more. .... so.... can we stop this unattractive behavior and try to improve the nursing situation? Thank you. ..

If we are concerned about the quality of our education I would urge the student/consumer to do their homework. In fact although I didn't realize that Vanderbilt was all that fancy what I can say is the educators at one of the above listed schools, with an excellent reputation, has what I would consider a lack of experienced practitioners running the program and teaching NP students.

eCCU · Dec 30, 2014

If we are concerned about the quality of our education I would urge the student/consumer to do their homework. In fact although I didn't realize that Vanderbilt was all that fancy what I can say is the educators at one of the above listed schools, with an excellent reputation, has what I would consider a lack of experienced practitioners running the program and teaching NP students.

......and that's probably why that person is running the program despite lack of experience. ...that does not mean they are not intelligent, as you said this person is a novice in this role or maybe teaching is not their forte, maybe their mentor in orientation was pathetic; we all know the results to that! Have you sat with them in person to express your frustrations to learn their perspective? ......after all let us be honest...the criterion is pretty competitive to get into such schools even though it is online, just go to JH and look at their DNP candidates it public info.....do you expect a new resident to be on the same level as the attending? Nope I hope not....nursing has always had a tendency to pick on each other instead of improving each other. This behavior has led to lack of respect from other disciplines....I am yet to see my 2 attendings going off on each other infront of their peers "....you went to UPenn I went to Harvard...blah...blah...blah who went where and who cares...." all I see is collegiate respect and yearning for more knowledge from each other all day long. They may not like each other but they have mutual respect for each other. On the other hand, all I see is nurses biting each other off......chew....chew....we shall continue.....unless we change it.....the end.....

Jules A, MSN · Dec 31, 2014

......and that's probably why that person is running the program despite lack of experience. ...that does not mean they are not intelligent, as you said this person is a novice in this role or maybe teaching is not their forte, maybe their mentor in orientation was pathetic; we all know the results to that! Have you sat with them in person to express your frustrations to learn their perspective? ......after all let us be honest...the criterion is pretty competitive to get into such schools even though it is online, just go to JH and look at their DNP candidates it public info.....do you expect a new resident to be on the same level as the attending?

I'm not sure I follow you. My point quite simply was that I would expect the director and faculty of a "prestigious" Nurse Practitioner Program to have actually worked as a Nurse Practitioner. There is no doubt they are all intelligent and their teaching skills might be fine if they actually knew how to do what they were teaching. My prestigious brick and mortar program had very few instructors with NP experience and I found it both shocking and disappointing. If I didn't have major experience in the specialty as well as an excellent mentor at my workplace my prescribing skills would be sorely lacking which is why I always encourage anyone thinking of going into advanced practice to have actual hands on experience in the specialty before loading up on what I felt to be not much more than book smarts.

Conqueror+, BSN, RN · Dec 31, 2014

So because physicians don't have online schools, that means we shouldn't? Physicians go to school for 4 years, and then do a 3 year residency, maybe we should do that too. Maybe if physicians jumped off a bridge....we should too.
Again, where is the evidence based research that says an NP attending school online is clinically inferior to an NP that went to a brick and mortar?
Regardless of online or in person, physicians are threatened by our perceived lack of education. NP schools have existed for much longer than the internet has, and the physician lobby belief that NP's are inferior predates the advent of online schools. If we were magically to get rid of all the online schools tomorrow, do you really believe MD's would magically welcome us in with open arms and respect us as equals? Would we miraculously be given full autonomy in all states because those dastardly online schools are gone forever? Absolutely not. The fact would still remain that we receive less education than them, and that is enough for them to discriminate.
Many already ignore the fact that our clinical outcomes and patient satisfaction levels are on equal grounds and in some instances better. NP data outcomes are blind to where you went to school. NP's are not physicians, and we have already proven our education methods are still incredibly effective.
Lastly, I personally have nothing to prove. I work with a physician that has great respect for my profession, pays me well, and thinks MD's/DO's spend way too much time in school. I only take issue with nurses that think one education method is inferior because they're afraid of our perception to physicians.

I actually disagree with you which is rare. I don't think they are threatened by our lack of education one bit because they don't care about our education. They care about being edged out. They care about spending 7+ post bacc years in school to have someone always seen as "just a nurse" come along and stand next to them. They care about 125k in student loans. I had a physician tell me that if nurses want a white coat and prescription pad they should have to go to medical school. Obviously he doesn't speak for every doctor but I have heard versions of that sentiment over the years. Even if you look at the CRNA/MDA situation it gives you a good idea of what they are afraid of. I have been a nurse for 21 years and back in 1995 we were still expected to stand and give the doc our seat when they entered. Those attitudes die hard. As far as education some argue about why MD's don't react to PA's the same way they do NP's. Quite simply they control PA practice. At my local health department in 2005 the staffing was 3 MD's and 1 NP. Now it is 1 MD and 3 NP's. I think they see a trend and don't like it. I agree 100% with the second part of your post that i highlighted. They ignore it because that is NOT the issue.

Conqueror+, BSN, RN · Dec 31, 2014

I realize that the OP accepted an offer but for perspective I earned over 70k in philadelphia as an LPN in 2008. Averaged 56 hours per week of work time. I'm sure that working in a practice demands at least that.

allennp · Jan 1, 2015

I think Boston frames it well, it's a problem of some inconsistent preparation with some schools not prepared to develop the NP role fully in my opinion. Related is my opinion that we should have more clinical hrs mandated, 1000 at least. This seems to be a issue more with online schools related to lack of connections in the community and..... not inaccurate perception that they seem to be less prepared. I both teach as a adjunct and precept as well as work in a large level 1 academic center. I have seen a huge variety of students and consistently observe a difference with online vs B&M, but there is overlap.

When I hire I do pay attention Especially if it is a relatively new grad.

A

allnurses Guide · Jan 1, 2015

I realize that the OP accepted an offer but for perspective I earned over 70k in philadelphia as an LPN in 2008. Averaged 56 hours per week of work time. I'm sure that working in a practice demands at least that.

There are absolutely RN/LPNs that make more than NPs, especially with OT. For many NPs it's more about the role, the bankers hours, and/or not having to work OT to make that kind of money.

For reference, the retail clinics here pay base $53/hr on 34 hour work weeks.

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xenogenetic · Jan 2, 2015

Yes, I agree its about lifestyle...especially as you get older because you want to enjoy life instead of trading your hours for dollars. So, as a NP you are able to make in a 32 hr workweek what you made as an RN in a 55 hour workweek. My old nursing supervisor made $280k last year. She made a ton of money but she was there almost everyday because in her state job she gets paid a retirement pension equal to 50% of her 3 highest income years, so you see a lot of state nurses work high OT hours right before retirement. Heck, you can make a ton of money doing OT as a mental health tech but your body and spirit will get banged up mighty handily along the way. The best job is the one where you can show up for the least amount of time and make the most amount of money, and if you like what you do is the icing on the cake. That is why I envy Michael Buffer, NFL kickers, and Entertainment stars. :-)