Any ADN-BSN programs without ridiculous papers?

PMFB-RN, RN · Mar 28, 2013

I don't know where in the world 3 semesters of education could possibly cost $40,000,

*** Nobody mentioned 3 semesters of education. My discussion was about accelerated BSN vs Associates degree. I live in Wisconsin and here an ADN consts about $6K at a comminity college. An accelerated BSN at a state university costs over $40K. Look here:

http://www.uwosh.edu/con/college-of-nursing-programs/undergraduate-bsn/accelerated-online-bachelors-to-bsn/tuition-and-financial-aid

but perhaps that is a locality thing? I'll give you this much - it IS more expensive to attend a university. But if we're going apples to apples here, the university and community college that are local to me are only about 10 minutes apart from each other.

*** I am sure that's true for city people. I live in a rural area of a rural state. Not true for very large numbers of people.

As for the idea that they don't have the ability to "devote 100% of their lives to nursing school to become nurses", again, local to me, the hours of the classes and the clinicals are nearly the same.

*** Hard to believe that an accelerated BSN program would the same hours as alternative programs as community colleges. I know a number of nurses who did accelerated BSN programs in 12 months and they tell me their programs were very intense and there was no possibiliety of work while attending.

For people who are local to ME, it is NOT beneficial to them to get an ADN if they already possess a BSN,

*** I find it very hard to believe ANYONE who held a BSN (bachelors of Science in Nursing) would benifit from obtaining an ADN. I have never heard of any nurse who already held a BSN go get an ADN.

I'm getting the feeling by your post that you feel I must look down on someone who would choose the ADN route instead.

*** I don't look down on people who go the ADN route and I don't think anyone else should either.

I

don't look down on anyone for making ANY personal choice. We all have our circumstances in life that lead us down the path that we choose.

I

*** My post was a response to a post where a person said "why would anyone do that". Pretty clearly questioning other choices I thought.

allnurses Guide · Mar 28, 2013

That isn't the case in nursing and I know it from personal experience, as well as the experience of many co-workers and friends.

And what about the literature?

PMFB-RN, RN · Mar 28, 2013

And what about the literature?

Sorry, can you be more specific?

allnurses Guide · Mar 28, 2013

Sorry, can you be more specific?

There have been a number of large retrospective cohort studies in the past five years that have indicated trends or significant associations between advanced nursing degrees and clinical outcomes.

There seems to be some academic or associated intangible benefit to advanced nursing degrees. I find it interesting that you have practiced at various degree levels. I have always championed individuals over degrees (up to BSN) but you seem to feel that it hasn't helped you be a better nurse. I can't help but wonder if this is a product of individual achievement (you have reached the extend of your scope through natural talent and experience), your practice environment, or something else.

Susie2310 · Mar 28, 2013

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ixchel · Mar 28, 2013

*** Nobody mentioned 3 semesters of education. My discussion was about accelerated BSN vs Associates degree. I live in Wisconsin and here an ADN consts about $6K at a comminity college. An accelerated BSN at a state university costs over $40K. Look here:
http://www.uwosh.edu/con/college-of-nursing-programs/undergraduate-bsn/accelerated-online-bachelors-to-bsn/tuition-and-financial-aid
*** I am sure that's true for city people. I live in a rural area of a rural state. Not true for very large numbers of people.
*** Hard to believe that an accelerated BSN program would the same hours as alternative programs as community colleges. I know a number of nurses who did accelerated BSN programs in 12 months and they tell me their programs were very intense and there was no possibiliety of work while attending.
*** I find it very hard to believe ANYONE who held a BSN (bachelors of Science in Nursing) would benifit from obtaining an ADN. I have never heard of any nurse who already held a BSN go get an ADN.
*** I don't look down on people who go the ADN route and I don't think anyone else should either.
II
*** My post was a response to a post where a person said "why would anyone do that". Pretty clearly questioning other choices I thought.

*I* mentioned 3 semesters of education in the post you initially responded to. I've been very clear that I am speaking to the things available locally to ME. By this response I have quoted here, I'm not sure if you actually read or understood the post you were responding to in its entirety.

P.S. When I said "BSN", I meant bachelors. My apologies. It was a typo.

Also, to the other poster who responded to me, I apologize for not multiquoting - I was speaking to only the schools here. One is a state university, and one is a community college. I was not trying to generalize to everywhere and everyone. I was also speaking only to those who already have a bachelor's degree and who are pursuing a degree in nursing. There is a difference in the way our university approaches the second degree nursing student and the first degree nursing student. The first degree program is a 16-month accelerated program (split into 3 semesters). There is no accelerated option at the community college. You attend for 6 semesters over a period of 2 years like the rest of the students.

PMFB-RN, RN · Mar 28, 2013

There have been a number of large retrospective cohort studies in the past five years that have indicated trends or significant associations between advanced nursing degrees and clinical outcomes.

*** Ah well I have never seen any such studies. I have seen "studies" supposedly showing improved patient outcomes depending on entry level degrees of the nurses. None I considered unbiased. Never have I seen any studies when advanced degrees where compaired. I am not sure how such a study would be relivent since the discussion was about entry degrees.

There seems to be some academic or associated intangible benefit to advanced nursing degrees. I

*** I am not talking about advanced degrees. I consider and advanec degree to be a masters or doctorate. I consider a BSN or ADN as entry degrees.

find it interesting that you have practiced at various degree levels. I have always championed individuals over degrees (up to BSN) but you seem to feel that it hasn't helped you be a better nurse. I can't help but wonder if this is a product of individual achievement (you have reached the extend of your scope through natural talent and experience), your practice environment, or something else

*** I have a unique job. I am a full time rapid response and resourse nurse. It is a very independant RN roll. I can't imagine any in hosital RN who has more autonomy than the RNs on out RRT/Resourse teams. Also an instructor in a superb critical care nurse residency program, preceptor for nursing students, ACLS and TNCC instructor. Before this job I did (still do casual) critical care transport (ground and air), before that I did SICU, CVICU, PICU, MICU and ER at various times, often several at a time since I like ti float and have alwasy had at least two jobs at a time.

Not only do I feel the BSN has been of zero benifit to me in my job, I think I missed out on better training that would have made a difference in my practice while I was doing BSN work. I still have the same job I had before I got the BSN so it didn't help me becomes employed. I did it since my employer offered to pay 100% of the cost and allow me to do much of the work and attend many of the classes on PAID time. Was to good a deal to turn down. I see the way the trend is going, even though I don't agree with it.

Instructing in the critical care nurse residency is one of the best places to become very cynical about the value of a BSN as an entry degree for staff nurses. We have not been able to determine any differences between ADN and BSN grads sucsess in the program. If anything there would be a slight edge to the ADN grads. I feel this is due to their greater maturity level and life experience.

wooh, BSN, RN · Mar 28, 2013

One thing I learned in my BSN classes: Anecdote does not equal data.

PMFB-RN, RN · Mar 28, 2013

One thing I learned in my BSN classes: Anecdote does not equal data.

*** Really? Is that true? You had to go to BSN classes to learn that? If that is the case for you and other nurses then I would tend to agree that a BSN should be required. Personal experience of people I know and trust counys for a lot with me. If there was actualy data, research performed in an ubiased way and including a large enough sample size to be meaningful I would certainly take that into account. However so far as I know no such research has been done. i have never seen it posted here or in any nursing journal. If you have some please post it.

In the absence I will rely on my personal experience and observations. Given my position and oppertunity to train a fairly large number of new grads from several kinds of programs, and we have the data from our own program. I know what percentage of residents, by degree do well and how many wash out and how many complete their contracts (Less than 25% for BSN grads vs 100% of ADN grads). I know what their scores on the BCAT are at the start of the program and the end of the residency. I find it compelling and haven't seen any unbiased research to change my mind.

fakebee · Mar 28, 2013

PMFB-RN- if you grind your BSN axe any harder you're going to break the handle. We are painfully aware of your position on this issue so please stop beating this dead horse before the ASPCA becomes involved.

macawake, MSN · Mar 28, 2013

*** Given my position and oppertunity to train a fairly large number of new grads from several kinds of programs, and we have the data from our own program. I know what percentage of residents, by degree do well and how many wash out and how many complete their contracts (Less than 25% for BSN grads vs 100% of ADN grads).

n=? in this study? I find the disparity between the success rates of these two groups astounding (unless the sample is very small). Why does one group of people have such a dismal success rate while the other group succeeds 100% of the time? In my opinion these numbers raise the question of confounding factors. Are the two groups offered the same support and opportunities/chances to succeed?

Do you believe that two years of schooling produces a stellar nurse but an additional two years somehow turns the future nurse into an utter failure? The success rates you report seem to indicate that but to me that outcome doesn't really seem plausible.

fakebee · Mar 28, 2013

PFMB- how many of the BSNs in the study left after either starting their ARNP or CRNA programs? I find it implausible there has never been an ADN washout.