Anti-vax nurses? Are you serious?

[dinah77]

We were discussing the Disneryland measles outbreak at work, and I was appalled to find some of my co-workers refuse to vaccinate their kids. They (grudgingly) receive the vaccines they need to remain employed, but doubt their safety/necessity for their kids.

I must say, I am absolutley stunned. How can one be a nurse and deny science?

As a nurse, you should darn well know what the scientific method entails and what phrases such as "evidence based" and "peer reviewed" mean.

I have to say, I have lost most of my respect for the nurses and mistrust their judgement; after all, if they deny science, on what premise are they basing their practices?

[Holistic12, BSN]

I am snide. I am sarcastic. I tend to keep those traits to myself until someone decides I'm a communist idiot who is poisoning my kids.

No one ever accused you of being communist or poisoning your kids. What you do is none of anyone else's business. The same goes for me.

[ixchel]

BALONEY.

It is a FACT that the lymph system, the bone marrow, the thymus gland, the spleen, et al are instrumental in the immune system.

I could provide literally a million additional sources which explain the importance of these organs and systems to the immune system. But why? They are in every reputable A & P textbook, every scientific journal, etc. It's like being asked to provide multiple sources to back up the fact that teeth are instrumental in chewing food.

Agreed. The WBCs and other various lymph system components in the GI system are there IN RESPONSE to how many pathogens we ingest orally. I think stating 70 or 80% of our immune system is in our gut is frustratingly misleading due to poor terminology.

[Red Kryptonite]

I do hope "KSRN20" comes back and offers you an apology, Andi. Even though I don't agree with much of what you are saying, it was a completely low blow to accuse you of being someone else, and then make a lot of insults and accusations based on that incorrect assumption.

I feel I owe an apology as well. I could find no evidence that andi had any previous user name or posts on the board beyond the ones in this thread. I still think she's wrong, but I apologize for jumping on that wagon.

[Horseshoe, BSN, RN]

A question to consider:

We know that some patients go through a process where their bone marrow is basically wiped out so that it can be replaced with healthy bone marrow cells from a donor.

During that period after the bone marrow has been "destroyed," so to speak, what is the greatest threat to this patient?

INFECTION.

It is such a threat that this patient is carefully quarantined so that they do not come into contact with infectious microorganisms. A common and normally benign infection could kill this patient.

Bone marrow is a crucial part of the immune system regardless of the gut.

[Fruit Sucker]

Is this sciencey enough for you? The immune system lies within the gut. NOT in the lymph nodes. Bone marrow? Really?

Allergy and the gastrointestinal system

Yes really. If you read the article you posted, you'll see it's about GALT, aka gut-associated lymphoid tissue. I don't know why your response to me is full of tone when I have been polite and respectful. You should reconsider that, because there are not many posters on here who have been.

I understand your interest in holistic medicine, and it's an interest of mine as well, but it does not preclude treatment with pharmaceuticals. You might be surprised to find out how many pharmaceuticals are plant-based, including vinca alkaloids (a common group of chemotherapy agents) which come from the periwinkle plant.

Nor does using pharmaceuticals preclude some of the other things you have mentioned, such as avoiding junk food and processed foods.

[Holistic12, BSN]

At the turn of the 20th century, before routine vaccinations, people lived to be a/b 50 in the U.S.; vaccines contributed to an increase in life span. The WHO estimates that about 6 million lives are saved each year due to vaccinations.

An estimate. It's a guess. Because we could not know what would happen without vaccines could we? We don't know if everyone would suddenly get a disease or not because everyone is getting vaccinated. Have you ever thought that these diseases were eradicated prior to the introduction of the vaccine? If so, the vaccine would look like the savior, when in reality, the incidence of the disease was already in decline. People lived longer that 50 years. My great grandma lived to almost 90. She was born in the 19th century.

[macawake, MSN]

I am under the impression that many of you have no clue about health. You have no clue about the importance of nutrition and building a healthy immune system (which is God given and perfectly capable of fighting off disease). You have no clue that about 80% of the immune system is within the gut, or that fermented foods, with all their good bacteria, can heal people and prevent disease. I do not fear disease because I do my best to prevent it by not eating processed junk food and supporting my immune system by incorporating healing foods.

I actually have a clue. Six years (BSN, MSN/anestesia and extra classes/credits in among others Pharmacology, Anatomy & Physiology, Microbiology) of studying nursing and medicine at university has given me a reasonable foundation.

Are you seriously suggesting that a healthy diet can ward off any disease and perhaps even cure any disease? HEALING foods?? I've met many patients who've led exemplary lives; healthy food, plenty of exercise, good stress management, no smoking etc who have still been become the victims of life-threatening disease.

I'm willing to bet that a person with Li-Fraumeni syndrome can eat only healthy food and still have a higher than average risk of getting cancer at a young age than the rest of the population. Yes, nutrition is very important, but it's not the answer to every health-related issue. Claiming that you can control every aspect of your health through diet is an oversimplification and untrue and might also burden a sick person with a lot of unwarranted guilt and self-reproach.

I don't need to put my faith in a vaccine. People survived for years before vaccines

I know that for thousands of years people survived just fine without all the mess of drugs, preservatives, hormones, GMOs etc. in Everything.

I have to wonder.. Is there anything about modern medicine that you approve of? People actually died a whole lot younger before vaccines, antibiotics and a slew of other medications were discovered.

Chemo is probably one of the worst things you could put into someone. It damages the body and most people end up dying from the chemo itself and not the cancer.

Of course chemotherapy damages cells in the body, it is cytotoxic. Nobody is making the argument that it isn't a very tough treatment, but make no mistake, chemotherapy saves lives.

Your statement that more people die from chemotherapy than the disease itself is false and I find it unethical for a nurse to say this. Did you really think about yor claim before you decided to post it on the internet? Because what you're essentially saying is that thousands/millions of physicians and nurses are treating patients with a method that actually increases the patient's risk of dying. Does it actually make sense to you that a large amount of dedicated healthcare professionals would continue to perpetuate such an atrocity year after year, decade after decade?

Why do you think that the survival rates for most cancers have improved significantly over the past decades? I doubt that it's improved dietary habits and fewer environmental toxins.. In my opinion it's modern medicine and chemotherapy treatment is one part of it.

[Holistic12, BSN]

This post right here makes it BLINDINGLY obvious you have no idea what and where your immune system is. Do you really not know how bone marrow is involved in immunity?

MOST of the immune system is in the gut. Disease begins in the gut. If it is not functioning properly, it's only a matter of time before disease sets in.

[mariebailey, MSN, RN]

An estimate. It's a guess. Because we could not know what would happen without vaccines could we? We don't know if everyone would suddenly get a disease or not because everyone is getting vaccinated. Have you ever thought that these diseases were eradicated prior to the introduction of the vaccine? If so, the vaccine would look like the savior, when in reality, the incidence of the disease was already in decline. People lived longer that 50 years. My great grandma lived to almost 90. She was born in the 19th century.

Your great grandma was the exception and not the rule. I do know what happened to people before the introduction of immunizations; they often got these diseases. I feel like you are trying to refute history.

[Horseshoe, BSN, RN]

An estimate. It's a guess. Because we could not know what would happen without vaccines could we? We don't know if everyone would suddenly get a disease or not because everyone is getting vaccinated. Have you ever thought that these diseases were eradicated prior to the introduction of the vaccine? If so, the vaccine would look like the savior, when in reality, the incidence of the disease was already in decline. People lived longer that 50 years. My great grandma lived to almost 90. She was born in the 19th century.

Statements like this are very common in anti-vaccine literature, the intent apparently being to suggest that vaccines are not needed.

Improved socioeconomic conditions have undoubtedly had an indirect impact on disease. Better nutrition, not to mention the development of antibiotics and other treatments, have increased survival rates among the sick; less crowded living conditions have reduced disease transmission; and lower birth rates have decreased the number of susceptible household contacts. But looking at the actual incidence of disease over the years can leave little doubt of the significant direct impact vaccines have had, even in modern times. Here, for example, is a graph showing the reported incidence of measles since 1920.

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There were periodic peaks and valleys throughout the years, but the real, permanent drop coincided with the licensure and wide use of measles vaccine beginning in 1963. Graphs for other vaccine-preventable diseases show a roughly similar pattern, with all except hepatitis B showing a significant drop in cases corresponding with the advent of vaccine use. Are we expected to believe that better sanitation caused incidence of each disease to drop, just at the time a vaccine for that disease was introduced? Furthermore, if improved sanitation has caused the drop in vaccine-preventable respiratory illnesses, why hasn't it curbed the incidence of other respiratory illneses (such as colds and flu) that are transmitted in the same way?

Hib vaccine is another good example, because Hib disease was prevalent until just a few years ago, when conjugate vaccines that can be used for infants were finally developed.

Misconceptions about Immunization

[Holistic12, BSN]

I think pharmaceuticals should be used as a last resort. I think that many ailments people have could be resolved with a simple elimination diet to find out what they are sensitive to. I think most often, diet change is enough. If not, then other things should be looked at, such as sleep, stress, labs, urine, etc. maybe more adjustments can be made. Drugs should always be a last resort in my opinion. They are expensive and often have negative side effects, and many drugs only mask the problem, they do not resolve it.

[Horseshoe, BSN, RN]

Disease begins in the gut.

Not all disease begins in the gut. That is just a patently false statement that borders on being extremely deliberately misleading.