this is in response to 'bioncokie's' post under 'Doctor's Frustrations' ,
Let me first say that I think being a crna is a great job. I've been doing it for 5 years now, working in the anesthesia care team model. I work with MDAs daily and I'm glad that they are there. Although some of your comments may be seen as offensive by some of my fellow crnas, you DO have some valid comments. That's what this forum is about. Talking about issues, educating everyone on the experience of crna's and mda's.
It's true that we are NOT as smart as MDs. It's true that we DON'T know the 'medical knowledge' that you do. You're right about our board exams. We aren't nearly tested on our knowledge to the extent physicians are. My crna board exam was only like 80 questions and I had around 3 hours to complete it. I understand your board exams (USMLEs) and Anesthesia boards are way more difficult and time-pressured. You're tested not only on paper, but also in clinical scenarios (like you said in Step 2) and during anesthesia oral boards. It must be very difficult.
I did not feel pressured during either of my board exams (nursing school and anes). We had plenty of time to answer questions. But YOU have to make decisions quickly and those exams prepare you for that. Maybe we should have to take more tests, have more questions, and be 'pressured' by having less time. If 'we' wan't to sit here and try to say we 'do the same things, know the same things' as MDAs do, then we should have to prove it. I calculated all my board exams together. My NCLEX was around 75 questions.. and my CRNA National Cert. Exam (boards) was like 70-100 questions (dont recall exact number). So, I was essentially asked to answer 175 questions to prove myself, not only as a nurse, but also as a CRNA. 175 questions for my entire career. Once I stepped back from this and looked at it.. I was really shocked. MDAs are tested on a completely different level. On behalf of all crnas, i feel we should be tested harder. Maybe we should take the board exam for MDAs and they should take our Nat.Cert.Exam. I think that would answer alot of questions brought up in this forum. But, unfortunately I don't think that would be the best idea.
I have two close friends who went to medical school. I had the unpleasant priviledge to see some of their study materials for their board exams. It really does blow my mind.. how much they had to learn. The shear amount of information that they learn.. it's in a different league. Then they have to show proficiency on numerous USMLEs and Anes boards. There is no way I could learn all that information and answer those board style questions, especially in the short amount of time they have for each question. I graduated number 2 in my CRNA class of 36 students, and I can sure tell you that my classmates would have little or no chance at passing those exams. But that's why I didn't go to medical school. I know my limitations. That's not to say nurses aren't intelligent. But doctors are in a different league, whether you like it or not. They're essentially the top tier students that our nation's universities pump out. That's why society rightfully holds them to a different standard. The're the brightest minds our nation produces. My friend in medschool got his BS degree in chemistry. He graduated summa cum laude. I don't know one nurse who could sit through a physical chemistry/ quantum physics course and pull an 'A'. let alone pull an 'A' in all chemistry courses.
I also found out that 4 of the ICU docs here at my hospital were (are) Anesthesiologist. I asked them how they got where they were. They basically do an extra year in residency in the ICU. They then are qualified to treat patients in the ICU, and in the case here.. our ICU director is an Anesthesiologist. They said there are many MDAs that don't even do the extra year of training but can moonlight in ICUs on the side...
I think I speak for all crnas when I say.. there is no way I could step foot in the ICU, take complete control of treating the sickest and most critical patients in the hospital, and feel like I was doing something right. (even with 12 months of ICU experience after crna residency) I spent 4 years as an ICU nurse. When things went bad, I didn't look to my left and right.. I looked to the phone. I paged the doctor !!
I don't know why crnas get so upset with this issue. Maybe they don't know exactly what MDAs go through, how much they know, the ICU stuff, etc. Maybe crnas don't know how much they really don't know. Well I do. But I'm proud of what I do. We ARE NOT the same as them. We should be proud of who we are. What makes us different makes us unique!! We are UNIQUE. We are SPECIAL !! Rejoice in the fact that we're special !! I love being a crna.
I do think it is interesting how a CRNA who heralds the MDA's is questioned 10+ times, but an MDA who heralds the CRNA's isn't questioned one bit. You can say whatever you want, but the bias is obvious and undeniable. This coming from a Biologist (that's why I said "ologist" and remained vague) who is objective and considering possibly "selling out" (as some of you say)vs the MDA route. I thought it would be an easier way to decide how much of this sparring is objective vs subjective.
I think everybody deserves respect, but I definitely don't see that happening here. I know some of you feel justified "well such and such never respected me, so I won't...." for your lack or respect, but surely you know that everyone shouldn't be mislabeled b/c of 1 or even 100 bad apples. I have always respected my family doc and believe doc's have a hard road to get where they are so they have earned (yes, earned) that respect until it is lost on an individual basis (just as you guys deserve respect on a person to person basis). Yet, I see many totally disrepecting the doctors as a whole ("that is why I hate doctors" --an earlier quote). Not too mention disrespecting your own CRNA brethren.
You are also not thinking clearly to say "CRNA's are smart, but anyone w/ a brainstem can get into medical school". To be polite, I will just say that sounds "silly". I have a tough decision to make and have alot of anxiety about even being able to get into medical school (if that turns out to be my path), but from the way you make it sound it's open to everybody. I think the point that is trying to be made is that if you are looking for someone that is intelligent my order of greater likelihood goes like this janitor
Is it too difficult to agree that a doctor (most of the time) will be more intelligent than the nurse/CRNA??
I questioned it right off the bat but my response was censored.
I think the point that is trying to be made is that if you are looking for someone that is intelligent my order of greater likelihood goes like this janitor
Is it too difficult to agree that a doctor (most of the time) will be more intelligent than the nurse/CRNA??
Actually it is too difficult to say that... We need to establish three things:
1) knowledge does not equal intelligence - We'll all agree that physicians are very knowledgeable and are at least above average intelligence. This said, this does not mean that they are more intelligence than any other health care provider.
2) job does not determine intelligence - people choose their professions for a variety of reasons. Their intelligence does not determine their job.
3) People choose to become nurses because they like nursing, not because they're not "good" enough to be physicians.
FYI - Many pilots out there do not have college degrees.
BTW - Don't use the term doctor - we have plenty of nursing doctors who conduct essential research (and many science doctorates who lead the way).
Since you don't understand the above things, I suggest you just stay out of health care altogether.
this is in response to 'bioncokie's' post under 'Doctor's Frustrations' ,
Let me first say that I think being a crna is a great job. I've been doing it for 5 years now, working in the anesthesia care team model. I work with MDAs daily and I'm glad that they are there. Although some of your comments may be seen as offensive by some of my fellow crnas, you DO have some valid comments. That's what this forum is about. Talking about issues, educating everyone on the experience of crna's and mda's.
It's true that we are NOT as smart as MDs. It's true that we DON'T know the 'medical knowledge' that you do. You're right about our board exams. We aren't nearly tested on our knowledge to the extent physicians are. My crna board exam was only like 80 questions and I had around 3 hours to complete it. I understand your board exams (USMLEs) and Anesthesia boards are way more difficult and time-pressured. You're tested not only on paper, but also in clinical scenarios (like you said in Step 2) and during anesthesia oral boards. It must be very difficult.
I did not feel pressured during either of my board exams (nursing school and anes). We had plenty of time to answer questions. But YOU have to make decisions quickly and those exams prepare you for that. Maybe we should have to take more tests, have more questions, and be 'pressured' by having less time. If 'we' wan't to sit here and try to say we 'do the same things, know the same things' as MDAs do, then we should have to prove it. I calculated all my board exams together. My NCLEX was around 75 questions.. and my CRNA National Cert. Exam (boards) was like 70-100 questions (dont recall exact number). So, I was essentially asked to answer 175 questions to prove myself, not only as a nurse, but also as a CRNA. 175 questions for my entire career. Once I stepped back from this and looked at it.. I was really shocked. MDAs are tested on a completely different level. On behalf of all crnas, i feel we should be tested harder. Maybe we should take the board exam for MDAs and they should take our Nat.Cert.Exam. I think that would answer alot of questions brought up in this forum. But, unfortunately I don't think that would be the best idea.
I have two close friends who went to medical school. I had the unpleasant priviledge to see some of their study materials for their board exams. It really does blow my mind.. how much they had to learn. The shear amount of information that they learn.. it's in a different league. Then they have to show proficiency on numerous USMLEs and Anes boards. There is no way I could learn all that information and answer those board style questions, especially in the short amount of time they have for each question. I graduated number 2 in my CRNA class of 36 students, and I can sure tell you that my classmates would have little or no chance at passing those exams. But that's why I didn't go to medical school. I know my limitations. That's not to say nurses aren't intelligent. But doctors are in a different league, whether you like it or not. They're essentially the top tier students that our nation's universities pump out. That's why society rightfully holds them to a different standard. The're the brightest minds our nation produces. My friend in medschool got his BS degree in chemistry. He graduated summa cum laude. I don't know one nurse who could sit through a physical chemistry/ quantum physics course and pull an 'A'. let alone pull an 'A' in all chemistry courses.
I also found out that 4 of the ICU docs here at my hospital were (are) Anesthesiologist. I asked them how they got where they were. They basically do an extra year in residency in the ICU. They then are qualified to treat patients in the ICU, and in the case here.. our ICU director is an Anesthesiologist. They said there are many MDAs that don't even do the extra year of training but can moonlight in ICUs on the side...
I think I speak for all crnas when I say.. there is no way I could step foot in the ICU, take complete control of treating the sickest and most critical patients in the hospital, and feel like I was doing something right. (even with 12 months of ICU experience after crna residency) I spent 4 years as an ICU nurse. When things went bad, I didn't look to my left and right.. I looked to the phone. I paged the doctor !!
I don't know why crnas get so upset with this issue. Maybe they don't know exactly what MDAs go through, how much they know, the ICU stuff, etc. Maybe crnas don't know how much they really don't know. Well I do. But I'm proud of what I do. We ARE NOT the same as them. We should be proud of who we are. What makes us different makes us unique!! We are UNIQUE. We are SPECIAL !! Rejoice in the fact that we're special !! I love being a crna.
SPEAK for yourself. All because you arent smart enough does not mean your peers aren't. You have no clue what someone else is capable of. everything you are saying is to black and white. You don't know anything about the person next to you and their situation. Its to complex. Don't assume its like that for everyone because its something you can't do.
To the original poster, and all of those that ever took this thread seriously.... The first poster is no CRNA. If so this person lacks the confidence that I believe is necessary to make critical decisions on her own. Its possible that the original poster is one that slipped through the cracks (all professions have some "slippage") and actually became aCRNA, but I highly doubt it. In fact I am most inclined to believe that the orginal poster is a doctor.
The orginal poster lacks organized thought, and should NEVER speak on behalf of all CRNAs when you haven't talked to any of us. I am trained to deliver and administer safe and effective anesthesia in ALL settings. I welcome input from all professionals that I work with in the hospital, but at the same time I will stack my knowledge of anesthesia against anyone else that is trained to do the same. i am proud to be a CRNA.
Oh, and as far as comparing mental capacity bewteen professions... ludicrous. I have degrees in zoology and chemistry. I wisely chose my profession as a CRNA because it fit my lifestyle that I wished to achieve in the time that I wished to achieve it, and for the appropriate cost.
Once again, the original poster DOES NOT speak for me. I skipped to posting this after reading the 1st page, for I couldn't take reading anymore serious replys to this joke.
Actually it is too difficult to say that... We need to establish three things:
1) knowledge does not equal intelligence - We'll all agree that physicians are very knowledgeable and are at least above average intelligence. This said, this does not mean that they are more intelligence than any other health care provider.
2) job does not determine intelligence - people choose their professions for a variety of reasons. Their intelligence does not determine their job.
3) People choose to become nurses because they like nursing, not because they're not "good" enough to be physicians.
FYI - Many pilots out there do not have college degrees.
BTW - Don't use the term doctor - we have plenty of nursing doctors who conduct essential research (and many science doctorates who lead the way).
Since you don't understand the above things, I suggest you just stay out of health care altogether.
1) I didn't say knowledge equals intelligence, but when given the option I will take the person w/ more knowledge/training/etc as MORE LIKELY being intelligent (w/o anything else to go by). This is just being logical. Until someone invents the brainometer or another measure, we don't have much to go by besides degrees/training/etc. Even IQ, is based off of knowledge/familiarization w/ IQ tests and averages that w/ similar aged ppl.
2) If given the decision to decide who is more intelligent who would you pick: the guy who drives the plane vs the guy who drives the bus, the CEO vs the mail clerk, NASA engineer vs NASA janitor, nurse vs nurse assistant (and yes, this is a trap question b/c it obviously leads to the MD vs RN). Job doesn't determine intelligence, I get that. Hey, I saw Good Will Hunting too: Who would have thought the smartest guy in the university was the janitor??? But, there is some correlation is there not? (btwn profession and intelligence). PS: I never said nurses choose their field b/c they're not "good enough".
3) I have been warned that "nurses eat their young" and that many nurses don't like their job, so don't pretend that this is a world where ppl choose their profession for altruistic reasons only. And many ppl are limited (or excluded) to profession by intelligence.
Hey, your FYI that pilots don't have degrees just verifies that you obviously correlate having a college degree w/ being intelligent (otherwise I assume you wouldn't have brought up this point).
BTW physicians are doctors too (it is called medical doctorate=MD) and I am allowed to call them doctors. But, if it is too difficult and confusing for you to follow what I mean, then I will use the term physician (you must have a god complex to think you can dictate what other ppl can say).
I would appreciate that you not talk down to me just b/c you are in the medical field (especially to someone aspiring to such a position). Your tone comes off as being better (which is something that seems to rub you the wrong way and here you are doing it yourself).
You are putting the wrong emphasis on what is important in life. Being a good, nice person is more imp than being intelligent/good looking/etc. Like OP said, "You enjoy what you do and are special. Rejoice!"
what the hell is the point of this thread? So we can all stroke our own egos and justify being nurses? I don't see doctors saying they're doctors because they didn't want to be nurses.
what is the big deal with saying that quite a few of us don't have what it takes, (patience, motivation, and plain smarts) to be doctors? Not really that big of a deal. It doesn't mean you're not good at what you do. Some of you might really suck at what you do and some of you are really great. (You have to admit there are the card-punching nursing who come to work, pass meds and then go home....card punching doctors as well, no doubt.)
Anyhow, i just don't understand why we can't just all get along (sorry, i couldn't resist)
I think that two of the biggest problems between nurses and doctors are as follows:
1) there is not anywhere near as comprehensive as standards to get into nursing school as there is medical school. This makes the medical field much more level than the nursing school candidates (this is the superiority complex many of you have mentioned
2) many, (not all, but many) nurses do not continue learning after school. They get their job and somewhat go through the motions and thus lose an edge by never opening a book again. I work in the SICU at a large hospital and i have a friend, who i grew up with in my home town, who is an orthopaedic surgeon. He reads every single night. because he loves it. Many nurses don't because it is just a job to them.
3) The nursing profession is largely unregulated. Doctors control how many people come into the profession by admitting more or less. Nursing schools fill up their seats every year and more schools open up every day it seems like. You show me a place where you can get a two year degree online, become a doctor and start your residency. They have more training and maybe we should give them a little respect for it......and one more thing, no more of this i hate babysitting residents when they first come out of school. You have to babysit the new nursing students too. It is no different.
Nobody is allowed to get pissy because they take offense to my comments....i'm not talking about you, or i am and you don't want to admit it. These are all just my observations and opinions.
"I don't know one nurse who could sit through a physical chemistry/ quantum physics course and pull an 'A'. let alone pull an 'A' in all chemistry courses. "
I agree with most of your post. I do not agree with nurses not being as smart. I believe there are nurses out there that are as intelligent as any MD or MDA, they only chose a different career or path.
I am a nurse that is 8 classes away from a biochemistry degree and 4 classes away from my RN to BSN degree. I have "A's" in all my chemistry classes. So now you know one nurse that has made As in his or her Chem classes. My goal is to become a CRNA
" think I speak for all crnas when I say.. there is no way I could step foot in the ICU, take complete control of treating the sickest and most critical patients in the hospital, and feel like I was doing something right. (even with 12 months of ICU experience after crna residency) "
I believe you are over generalizing here and through some of your post. There are some very intelligent nurses out there who could manage the sick patients. I know some RNs in the ICU who manage very well, One of my charge nurses in the ICU fields many questions about procedures and patient care management from the MDs themselves.
"Well I do. But I'm proud of what I do. We ARE NOT the same as them. We should be proud of who we are. What makes us different makes us unique!! We are UNIQUE. We are SPECIAL !! Rejoice in the fact that we're special !! I love being a crna.
You should be proud, you worked hard to get where you are and yes you are unique as is every one else. You have been trained to do what you should do within the level of your licensure. MDAs respectively. Everyone plays his or her part in the "Big Game." It is important for everyone to recognize his or her role and not discredit others for theirs. Learning opportunities are everywhere, reach out and grab them and own them. If some CRNAs are having difficulty with the MDAs role, then they need to educate themselves on the differences or go back to school to become an MDA or keep quiet.
Congrats to you on your achievements!
congrats on your ever closer biochem degree. I am thinking of applying for the PhD program myself in organic or biochemistry at Ohio State Univ. Hopefully they will pay for it since i am working there. I am studying for my GRE right now.
I do have a question for you though, do you find it useful for what you do. I am hoping that i will be able to use my advanced degree everyday to help my patients but i would like to hear it from the horses mouth. Now, all i have to do is find a nurse with an advanced degree in organic and ask them if it is useful.
Do I consider it selling out to go the CRNA route just because it takes less time? yes.
Do I really care when im making 250K+ in way less time? No.
Its all in what you want and what you are willing to sacrifice. Just be content with your choices. If you wanna be an MD then go to medical school plain and simple. With so many med schools in the carribean pretty much anyone with a brain stem can enroll.
except that you could make twice that in just a few more years of education/residency.
I do agree with you on the rest of the statements. Quite insightful.
Although I'm not a CRNA, I would like to comment on a few things about this topic at hand. I just graduated from a 12 month BSN program and now I'm working in a CTICU at a urban medical center. I would like to pursue anesthesia school in the next few years just like everyone else who works in ICU. I now have a total of 3 degrees that until now have not gotten me anywhere. I have a BS in physiology, a MS in basic medical sciences and the BSN degree. Originally during my 1st degree I was pursuing med school and competing with all the other overachievers and "gunners" who wanted that med school spot. I ended up applying to med school a total of 3 times and taking the dreadful MCAT 3 times and was rejected everytime. I finally made a decision that I had to move on with my life and pursue something that I was good in and that I was confident in doing and that is nursing. Till this day at 27 yrs old I truly believe I would've made a great med student and physician, but the whole process isn't fair when applying to med school. At the present time I consider myself just as smart as someone thats in med school or in residency. I will always respect physicians and what they have to deal with in residency and practice. They go through alot of crap in med school and residency that I won't have to go through. I'm happy I chose nursing because at least I will have a life outside of the hospital. Nurse anesthesia intrigues me and I'm ready for the challenge!
[ I don't know one nurse who could sit through a physical chemistry/ quantum physics course and pull an 'A'. let alone pull an 'A' in all chemistry courses.
I know that you have a very valid point here, but please don't assume that all nurses are just too dumb to excel at the same subjects as physicians. Many of us, myself included, have either taken additional pre-med courses or have additional degress such as in Biology or Chemistry. Having taken inorganic and organic chemistry and made "A's" in both coursees I find it a bit insulting that you believe a nurse isn't capable of this feat. Most of the med schools only require general physics, not quantum physics, and it's not that difficult of a course if you understand trig and algebra (yes, I took physics and made an A). So many of us have had the same undergrad courses as many of the physicians, by our choice for whatever reason.
jwk
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