this is in response to 'bioncokie's' post under 'Doctor's Frustrations' ,
Let me first say that I think being a crna is a great job. I've been doing it for 5 years now, working in the anesthesia care team model. I work with MDAs daily and I'm glad that they are there. Although some of your comments may be seen as offensive by some of my fellow crnas, you DO have some valid comments. That's what this forum is about. Talking about issues, educating everyone on the experience of crna's and mda's.
It's true that we are NOT as smart as MDs. It's true that we DON'T know the 'medical knowledge' that you do. You're right about our board exams. We aren't nearly tested on our knowledge to the extent physicians are. My crna board exam was only like 80 questions and I had around 3 hours to complete it. I understand your board exams (USMLEs) and Anesthesia boards are way more difficult and time-pressured. You're tested not only on paper, but also in clinical scenarios (like you said in Step 2) and during anesthesia oral boards. It must be very difficult.
I did not feel pressured during either of my board exams (nursing school and anes). We had plenty of time to answer questions. But YOU have to make decisions quickly and those exams prepare you for that. Maybe we should have to take more tests, have more questions, and be 'pressured' by having less time. If 'we' wan't to sit here and try to say we 'do the same things, know the same things' as MDAs do, then we should have to prove it. I calculated all my board exams together. My NCLEX was around 75 questions.. and my CRNA National Cert. Exam (boards) was like 70-100 questions (dont recall exact number). So, I was essentially asked to answer 175 questions to prove myself, not only as a nurse, but also as a CRNA. 175 questions for my entire career. Once I stepped back from this and looked at it.. I was really shocked. MDAs are tested on a completely different level. On behalf of all crnas, i feel we should be tested harder. Maybe we should take the board exam for MDAs and they should take our Nat.Cert.Exam. I think that would answer alot of questions brought up in this forum. But, unfortunately I don't think that would be the best idea.
I have two close friends who went to medical school. I had the unpleasant priviledge to see some of their study materials for their board exams. It really does blow my mind.. how much they had to learn. The shear amount of information that they learn.. it's in a different league. Then they have to show proficiency on numerous USMLEs and Anes boards. There is no way I could learn all that information and answer those board style questions, especially in the short amount of time they have for each question. I graduated number 2 in my CRNA class of 36 students, and I can sure tell you that my classmates would have little or no chance at passing those exams. But that's why I didn't go to medical school. I know my limitations. That's not to say nurses aren't intelligent. But doctors are in a different league, whether you like it or not. They're essentially the top tier students that our nation's universities pump out. That's why society rightfully holds them to a different standard. The're the brightest minds our nation produces. My friend in medschool got his BS degree in chemistry. He graduated summa cum laude. I don't know one nurse who could sit through a physical chemistry/ quantum physics course and pull an 'A'. let alone pull an 'A' in all chemistry courses.
I also found out that 4 of the ICU docs here at my hospital were (are) Anesthesiologist. I asked them how they got where they were. They basically do an extra year in residency in the ICU. They then are qualified to treat patients in the ICU, and in the case here.. our ICU director is an Anesthesiologist. They said there are many MDAs that don't even do the extra year of training but can moonlight in ICUs on the side...
I think I speak for all crnas when I say.. there is no way I could step foot in the ICU, take complete control of treating the sickest and most critical patients in the hospital, and feel like I was doing something right. (even with 12 months of ICU experience after crna residency) I spent 4 years as an ICU nurse. When things went bad, I didn't look to my left and right.. I looked to the phone. I paged the doctor !!
I don't know why crnas get so upset with this issue. Maybe they don't know exactly what MDAs go through, how much they know, the ICU stuff, etc. Maybe crnas don't know how much they really don't know. Well I do. But I'm proud of what I do. We ARE NOT the same as them. We should be proud of who we are. What makes us different makes us unique!! We are UNIQUE. We are SPECIAL !! Rejoice in the fact that we're special !! I love being a crna.
[ I don't know one nurse who could sit through a physical chemistry/ quantum physics course and pull an 'A'. let alone pull an 'A' in all chemistry courses.
I know that you have a very valid point here, but please don't assume that all nurses are just too dumb to excel at the same subjects as physicians. Many of us, myself included, have either taken additional pre-med courses or have additional degress such as in Biology or Chemistry. Having taken inorganic and organic chemistry and made "A's" in both courses I find it a bit insulting that you believe a nurse isn't capable of this feat. Most of the med schools only require general physics, not quantum physics, and it's not that difficult of a course if you understand trig and algebra (yes, I took physics and made an A). So many of us have had the same undergrad courses as many of the physicians, by our choice for whatever reason.
you're obviously an exception as are most CRNAs, for that matter.
Taking into consideration your post, you must admit that a vast majority of BSN prepared nurses are most likely not able to hack the pre-med classes. Simply out of lack of patience of being able to sit still for 6 hours and study or just because they think it is useless and many only take what they need to take in order to get their degree. This is understandable but not my bag of chips. Many think there is no reason to study after graduating...a major difference between most nurses and most physicians and likely a precipitating factor of the longtime riff.
you're obviously an exception as are most CRNAs, for that matter.
Taking into consideration your post, you must admit that a vast majority of BSN prepared nurses are most likely not able to hack the pre-med classes. Simply out of lack of patience of being able to sit still for 6 hours and study or just because they think it is useless and many only take what they need to take in order to get their degree. quote]
Wow. That's pretty insulting. I don't think it's very kind, or accurate, to state that most nurses can't "hack the pre-med classes". Wow. I"m in shock. YOu are a nurse, right? I think you are correct when you stated that most do not because they choose not to for whatever reason. But saying that they can't is another thing. By the way, I know many, many nurses who have taken a lot of the pre-med courses. You make nurses sound like that are of inferior intelligence to doctors. Please tell me that was not your intent.
I am aspiring to be a CRNA and I am very disappointed with this post. From the time I decided to do CRNA I have heard doctors and nurses downing this career field and it's something I don't understand.
1) The field was put into place for a reason, it is obvious that specialized nurses were needed to help assist MDA's in the field
2) The main complaint is over money if CRNA's weren't getting paid as much as they do there would be no issue
3) MD's should have harder exams and more preperations THEY ARE GOING TO BE DOCTORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They hold lives in their hands if anything it should be harder because to many brains without common sense slip through the cracks.
4) Everyone made a choice. I decided to be a nurse because that is what I wanted to do not because I couldn't be a doctor but because I WANTED to be a nurse. Doctors made the choice knowing full well what they were getting into so why gripe and complain about it.
5) Nurses need to respect themselves more and then other people will to especially Doctors, nurses are for some reason seen as low level assistants when they go to school, do clinicals, and are caring for the injured and sick on a daily basis. Never say well i'm just a nurse, you are one of the most vital and in demand occupations there is, be proud of that!!
6) CRNA's role is vital and they have to act independently and if there is something they can not handle they should be able to call a MDA for further assistance, BUT imagine all the knowledge and skilll the CRNA must have to perform the functions they do and in the end will only have to call on a MDA if there is a complete emergency. That is pretty impressive.
Finally to reinterate what I said before its all about the money, however if CRNA assist MDA's then they should get half. If you make 300k I should get 150k, PERIOD.
The amount of school and skill neccessary to be a CRNA is just 2 years short of a MD, why not be proud of it.
I am aspiring to be a CRNA and I am very disappointed with this post. From the time I decided to do CRNA I have heard doctors and nurses downing this career field and it's something I don't understand.
1) The field was put into place for a reason, it is obvious that specialized nurses were needed to help assist MDA's in the field
2) The main complaint is over money if CRNA's weren't getting paid as much as they do there would be no issue
6) CRNA's role is vital and they have to act independently and if there is something they can not handle they should be able to call a MDA for further assistance, BUT imagine all the knowledge and skilll the CRNA must have to perform the functions they do and in the end will only have to call on a MDA if there is a complete emergency. That is pretty impressive.
Finally to reinterate what I said before its all about the money, however if CRNA assist MDA's then they should get half. If you make 300k I should get 150k, PERIOD.
.
You need to do more research on our field before you post comments like this.
Your first point: CRNAs were not created to help MDs, that was what AAs were created for. CRNAs have been giving Anesthesia for over 100 years now, even before MDs were doing it. I'm not a handmaiden and when and if you become a CRNA, hopefully after being educated, you will not consider yourself a handmaiden either.
Your 2nd point: That's their complaint. They can complain all they want, I do a job and I get fair compensation for it. It is none of their business how much I make. When and if you become a CRNA, hopefully after being educated, how much you make will not be an issue to you either.
Your 6th point: When and if you become a CRNA, you will find that CRNAs are educated in the art and science of anesthesia and if you are in an ACT practice then you may ask an MD for backup. But, many, many, many, CRNAs practice independently without "backup" from an MD and amazingly, their patients survive! After you are educated, this will not be an issue to you either.
And your last statement about being worth 1/2 of an MD is just incredibly ignorant of what a CRNA does every single day. Same job....same worth. Again...after you've been educated, you'll understand this.
Ok, this thread is crazy. I highly suggest looking into the history of nurse anesthesia before making comments that have been made on this thread. I would also suggest this website http://www.anesthesia-nursing.com/wina.html for a short nurse anesthesia history in the U.S..
Nurse Anesthetists having been doing anesthesia as long or longer than physicians. CRNAs do not need the supervision of an MDA to provide safe anesthesia care.
Research shows that CRNAs provide just as safe or safer anesthesia care than MDAs.
It is requirement in some states that CRNAs work under the supervision of MDAs, not all states but some....some states allow total independent practice by CRNAs.
The fight between MDAs and CRNAs is about money. Historically most physicians weren't that interested in anesthesia until it became a more lucrative speciality.
Don't kid yourself, all the CRNAs I know could have went to medical school and did just fine. A lot of the instructors at my school have their CRNAs and PhD in neuroscience (military school). I don't think anyone of them would have a hard time passing the med-school classes in fact they have to take several with the med students for their PhD.
As far as nurses not being smart enough for Med-school......My last unit one of the nurses had his Master's in engineering and a Phd in physics......highly unusual but people get into nursing for all different reasons it is not because we are just too dumb to go to med-school.
You need to do more research on our field before you post comments like this.
Your first point: CRNAs were not created to help MDs, that was what AAs were created for. CRNAs have been giving Anesthesia for over 100 years now, even before MDs were doing it. I'm not a handmaiden and when and if you become a CRNA, hopefully after being educated, you will not consider yourself a handmaiden either.
Your 2nd point: That's their complaint. They can complain all they want, I do a job and I get fair compensation for it. It is none of their business how much I make. When and if you become a CRNA, hopefully after being educated, how much you make will not be an issue to you either.
Your 6th point: When and if you become a CRNA, you will find that CRNAs are educated in the art and science of anesthesia and if you are in an ACT practice then you may ask an MD for backup. But, many, many, many, CRNAs practice independently without "backup" from an MD and amazingly, their patients survive! After you are educated, this will not be an issue to you either.
And your last statement about being worth 1/2 of an MD is just incredibly ignorant of what a CRNA does every single day. Same job....same worth. Again...after you've been educated, you'll understand this.
Thank you for that you are right, I wasn't trying to imply that a CRNA was an assistant. Overall what I wanted to emphasize is that everyone plays a particular purpose in the hospital and no one profession should be slighted and it seems a lot of the times the CRNA profession has been slighted. I do understand how my wording could have made it seem like I was reducing CRNA's to assistants. Not my intention. When I become a CRNA I want the same respect as everyone else, so I would not even dream of trying to reduce myself to an assistant.
you're obviously an exception as are most CRNAs, for that matter.
Taking into consideration your post, you must admit that a vast majority of BSN prepared nurses are most likely not able to hack the pre-med classes. Simply out of lack of patience of being able to sit still for 6 hours and study or just because they think it is useless and many only take what they need to take in order to get their degree. quote]
Wow. That's pretty insulting. I don't think it's very kind, or accurate, to state that most nurses can't "hack the pre-med classes". Wow. I"m in shock. YOu are a nurse, right? I think you are correct when you stated that most do not because they choose not to for whatever reason. But saying that they can't is another thing. By the way, I know many, many nurses who have taken a lot of the pre-med courses. You make nurses sound like that are of inferior intelligence to doctors. Please tell me that was not your intent.
The OP talked about a response to doctor frustrations and it expanded to the ever present doctor nurse rift.
It should come as no surprise that nurses aren't able to take the medical school classes.
1)They don't have the time or the patience to do so when in nursing school.
2) it certainly is not a whole lot of bang for your buck considering that they will usually not be applying the knowledge gained and therefore lose it.
3) They have no reason to unless, of course, they want to go to medical school some day.
Nowhere did i say that nurses have an inferior intelligence. if you read my post on page six, you'll see that i talked about how different medical schools and nursing schools are in regards to admittance. Medical school is more standardized with regards to the MCAT and the requirements are more stringent. They interview everyone they admit to their college. I would hope that all physicians are smarter and sharper than i am, i may be in their care one day and my life could depend on their decisions.
my point is that it is fruitless to compare the two fields when the only thing they have in common is the fact that we both work in the hospital. You coming around and saying that i implied that nurses are less intelligent was unfounded, in my opinion. I said that a "vast majority" wouldn't be able to because they would lose interest, not find it useful to nursing, do very poorly, or they wouldn't have the patience to sit for hours on end and study 2 chapters of organic chemistry.
Case in point, the Ohio State Univ College of nursing prereqs, where i graduated, are Psychology 100, Sociology 100, Anatomy 199, Math 116, Human Nutrition 315, 2 chemistry classes (something else that i can't remember right now) and people walk into nursing school with a 3.7+ GPA. However, people apply to medical school with the same kinds of GPA after taking the med school prereqs (we all know what they are), taking the MCAT and scoring in the top 15-20% of everyone that took the MCAT just to have a chance at medical school. There is just no point in comparing the two, they are two different beasts completely.
[ I don't know one nurse who could sit through a physical chemistry/ quantum physics course and pull an 'A'. let alone pull an 'A' in all chemistry courses.
I know that you have a very valid point here, but please don't assume that all nurses are just too dumb to excel at the same subjects as physicians. Many of us, myself included, have either taken additional pre-med courses or have additional degress such as in Biology or Chemistry. Having taken inorganic and organic chemistry and made "A's" in both coursees I find it a bit insulting that you believe a nurse isn't capable of this feat. Most of the med schools only require general physics, not quantum physics, and it's not that difficult of a course if you understand trig and algebra (yes, I took physics and made an A). So many of us have had the same undergrad courses as many of the physicians, by our choice for whatever reason.
it seems as though you were planning on attending medical school.....did you take the MCAT and apply?........
I too am offended that you assume that my CHOICE not to attend medical school means I was not capable of doing so!
I am a woman and chose CRNA as a career b/c it was one that I could make a good salary WITHOUT becoming a slave to my job. It was a medical career I knew I would love (and I do) & I knew I could pay back while working PART-TIME if I wanted to at some point.
If I had gone to med school I could have NEVER chosen to work part-time. I would have been forced to work full-time FOREVER just to pay it back. I did not want that. I wanted children and a family----which I'm 32 and still haven't gotten around to yet but I can when I'm ready. And I wanted to have time to spend with my kids. I wanted to drop them off at school at attend soccer games. Otherwise, why have them?
My parents were not able to pay for my undergrad education much less my graduate MSN program, so obviously there's no way they could have paid for med school either. There's really no such thing as working "part-time" as a physician, and, so I very happily chose the route of becoming a CRNA so that I could become a mom and enjoy time with family and friends & my children working part-time. Working as a CRNA even part-time in the future will still allow me to make enough money to easily pay off my student loan debts without causing me financial stress.
I'll also have you know (the original poster) that I graduated summa cum laude with a double degree in Biochemistry and a BSN from a top-ranked state school---I could've gone to an Ivy League but my baby sister was born when I was 16 and I didn't want her to grow up with me on the wrong coast. And OH YEAH, I managed my first two degrees in 4 years---nearly 200 credit hours total. And I was a National Merit Scholar in high school which helped me get most of my undergraduate education paid for. I later graduated first in my class from a top-ranked CRNA school (a top five program).
Don't tell me I'm not capable of running with the big boys.
proclivity
66 Posts
you're obviously an exception as are most CRNAs, for that matter.
Taking into consideration your post, you must admit that a vast majority of BSN prepared nurses are most likely not able to hack the pre-med classes. Simply out of lack of patience of being able to sit still for 6 hours and study or just because they think it is useless and many only take what they need to take in order to get their degree. This is understandable but not my bag of chips. Many think there is no reason to study after graduating...a major difference between most nurses and most physicians and likely a precipitating factor of the longtime riff.