this is in response to 'bioncokie's' post under 'Doctor's Frustrations' ,
Let me first say that I think being a crna is a great job. I've been doing it for 5 years now, working in the anesthesia care team model. I work with MDAs daily and I'm glad that they are there. Although some of your comments may be seen as offensive by some of my fellow crnas, you DO have some valid comments. That's what this forum is about. Talking about issues, educating everyone on the experience of crna's and mda's.
It's true that we are NOT as smart as MDs. It's true that we DON'T know the 'medical knowledge' that you do. You're right about our board exams. We aren't nearly tested on our knowledge to the extent physicians are. My crna board exam was only like 80 questions and I had around 3 hours to complete it. I understand your board exams (USMLEs) and Anesthesia boards are way more difficult and time-pressured. You're tested not only on paper, but also in clinical scenarios (like you said in Step 2) and during anesthesia oral boards. It must be very difficult.
I did not feel pressured during either of my board exams (nursing school and anes). We had plenty of time to answer questions. But YOU have to make decisions quickly and those exams prepare you for that. Maybe we should have to take more tests, have more questions, and be 'pressured' by having less time. If 'we' wan't to sit here and try to say we 'do the same things, know the same things' as MDAs do, then we should have to prove it. I calculated all my board exams together. My NCLEX was around 75 questions.. and my CRNA National Cert. Exam (boards) was like 70-100 questions (dont recall exact number). So, I was essentially asked to answer 175 questions to prove myself, not only as a nurse, but also as a CRNA. 175 questions for my entire career. Once I stepped back from this and looked at it.. I was really shocked. MDAs are tested on a completely different level. On behalf of all crnas, i feel we should be tested harder. Maybe we should take the board exam for MDAs and they should take our Nat.Cert.Exam. I think that would answer alot of questions brought up in this forum. But, unfortunately I don't think that would be the best idea.
I have two close friends who went to medical school. I had the unpleasant priviledge to see some of their study materials for their board exams. It really does blow my mind.. how much they had to learn. The shear amount of information that they learn.. it's in a different league. Then they have to show proficiency on numerous USMLEs and Anes boards. There is no way I could learn all that information and answer those board style questions, especially in the short amount of time they have for each question. I graduated number 2 in my CRNA class of 36 students, and I can sure tell you that my classmates would have little or no chance at passing those exams. But that's why I didn't go to medical school. I know my limitations. That's not to say nurses aren't intelligent. But doctors are in a different league, whether you like it or not. They're essentially the top tier students that our nation's universities pump out. That's why society rightfully holds them to a different standard. The're the brightest minds our nation produces. My friend in medschool got his BS degree in chemistry. He graduated summa cum laude. I don't know one nurse who could sit through a physical chemistry/ quantum physics course and pull an 'A'. let alone pull an 'A' in all chemistry courses.
I also found out that 4 of the ICU docs here at my hospital were (are) Anesthesiologist. I asked them how they got where they were. They basically do an extra year in residency in the ICU. They then are qualified to treat patients in the ICU, and in the case here.. our ICU director is an Anesthesiologist. They said there are many MDAs that don't even do the extra year of training but can moonlight in ICUs on the side...
I think I speak for all crnas when I say.. there is no way I could step foot in the ICU, take complete control of treating the sickest and most critical patients in the hospital, and feel like I was doing something right. (even with 12 months of ICU experience after crna residency) I spent 4 years as an ICU nurse. When things went bad, I didn't look to my left and right.. I looked to the phone. I paged the doctor !!
I don't know why crnas get so upset with this issue. Maybe they don't know exactly what MDAs go through, how much they know, the ICU stuff, etc. Maybe crnas don't know how much they really don't know. Well I do. But I'm proud of what I do. We ARE NOT the same as them. We should be proud of who we are. What makes us different makes us unique!! We are UNIQUE. We are SPECIAL !! Rejoice in the fact that we're special !! I love being a crna.
Do I consider it selling out to go the CRNA route just because it takes less time? yes.
Do I really care when im making 250K+ in way less time? No.
Its all in what you want and what you are willing to sacrifice. Just be content with your choices. If you wanna be an MD then go to medical school plain and simple. With so many med schools in the carribean pretty much anyone with a brain stem can enroll.
Anesthesiology is so competitive that you would not find a foreign medical graduate matriculating into any program in the US... it was the most competitive residency last year... a caRIBBean graduate would most likely find themselves a spot in family or internal med (comprised of 40% FMG's)
Stop belittling those that have gone to medical school, you should not open your mouth about it unless you have been through it, you have NO idea...
Stop belittling those that have gone to medical school, you should not open your mouth about it unless you have been through it, you have NO idea...
Perhaps anesthesiologists and med students should stop belittling nurses, CRNA's, NP's, etc... unless you are one, you have NO idea what it means to be one...
I do think it is interesting how a CRNA who heralds the MDA's is questioned 10+ times, but an MDA who heralds the CRNA's isn't questioned one bit. You can say whatever you want, but the bias is obvious and undeniable. This coming from a Biologist (that's why I said "ologist" and remained vague) who is objective and considering possibly "selling out" (as some of you say)vs the MDA route. I thought it would be an easier way to decide how much of this sparring is objective vs subjective.
I think everybody deserves respect, but I definitely don't see that happening here. I know some of you feel justified "well such and such never respected me, so I won't...." for your lack or respect, but surely you know that everyone shouldn't be mislabeled b/c of 1 or even 100 bad apples. I have always respected my family doc and believe doc's have a hard road to get where they are so they have earned (yes, earned) that respect until it is lost on an individual basis (just as you guys deserve respect on a person to person basis). Yet, I see many totally disrepecting the doctors as a whole ("that is why I hate doctors" --an earlier quote). Not too mention disrespecting your own CRNA brethren.
You are also not thinking clearly to say "CRNA's are smart, but anyone w/ a brainstem can get into medical school". To be polite, I will just say that sounds "silly". I have a tough decision to make and have alot of anxiety about even being able to get into medical school (if that turns out to be my path), but from the way you make it sound it's open to everybody. I think the point that is trying to be made is that if you are looking for someone that is intelligent my order of greater likelihood goes like this janitor
Is it too difficult to agree that a doctor (most of the time) will be more intelligent than the nurse/CRNA??
Stop belittling those that have gone to medical school, you should not open your mouth about it unless you have been through it, you have NO idea...
Perhaps anesthesiologists and med students should stop belittling nurses, CRNA's, NP's, etc... unless you are one, you have NO idea what it means to be one...
... all i see on this board is "CRNAs can do all that an MD can do. MD's are useless in anesthesia....
... all i see on this board is "CRNAs can do all that an MD can do. MD's are useless in anesthesia....
I think you are seeing what you want to see. This kind of back and forth bickering and finger pointing is rare on this board and in practice. As I said before, this thread and others like it was started simply to stir up the pot. It's pointless.
... all i see on this board is "CRNAs can do all that an MD can do. MD's are useless in anesthesia....
I agree with piper, you see what you want.
Please give five examples of posts that explicitly state that "CRNAs can do all that an MD can do" AND 5 explicit examples of "MDs are useless in anesthesia."
Am I the only one not impressed by the premed prerequisites??? Some of y'all act like the prerequisites classes are masters level chemistry or physics... Guess what, they're not... Here's what they are:
2 Semesters of Calculus (less for DO): Hmm, got that through AP credit in HS
2 Semesters of Biology with lab: Hmm, also got that through AP credit in HS
2 Semesters of General Chemistry with lab: Hmm, also got that through AP credit in HS
2 Semesters of Organic Chemistry with lab: Just about any science major will take this (and a prerequisite for many CRNA programs)
2 Semesters of Physics with Lab: Didn't have time to take the AP for it in HS
So, only 2 classes not available as AP credit in high school... Very advanced....
Let's be honest, the undergrad prereq's for medschool are about 30-40 credits - only 1/4-1/3 of the undergraduate degree. I personally find it insulting to be told that: 1) the undergrad prereq's are "advanced" science (they're not - advanced means upper level) and that 2) I couldn't possibly do well in those classes...
I guess all of our science PhD's who are leading the way in research weren't smart enough to be physicians...
You go RNFPC!! Why do people think it's something that can't be accomplished without being a rocket scientist?? THEY'RE JUST CLASSES THAT ANYONE CAN TAKE.
You are more intelligent and smarter than a physician. You are a humble nurse. CRNA's are the technicians of the anesthesia world, they are the anesthesiologist's scut monkeys. They earn 1/3 less than anesthesiologists and rightfully so, they have only acquired, at the most, 1/6th of the didactic education of the anesthesiologist. Any CRNA has the option of going to medical school to become an anesthesiologist to increase their pay, knowledge base, and power, but at the exuberent price of extensive time and money which may take many years to recover, even at an anesthesiologists pay. To sum it all up a humble CRNA, in my opinion, looks a lot like this: more earning years + less school + less responsibility = 1 seething, jealous anesthesiologist.
deepz
612 Posts
Yeah.
Disguised as a crna (note -- not CRNA, in caps).