ADN's being pushed out

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I work for a large Magnet hospital. As nursing becomes more popular, and nurses not in short supply, I have noticed something ominous has being going on lately. Several of our older and very seasoned ADN nurses are being fired. The excuses for firing are ridiculous. I have sadly seen some excellent nurses lose their jobs. I am wondering if they want to get rid of the ADNs so they can look "better" with an all BSN staff. Or perhaps they want rid of older nurses who have been there longer because they are higher on the pay scale. Either way, it is very scarey. I myself am BSN, and i am not ashamed to say that what I know does not hold a candle to these fired nurses. Any thoughts?

I think that some of the hospitals in my area TRIED to go the BSN only route BUT....there's only one college in our education district that offers a nursing program and it's ADN only. So any nurses with a BSN would have come from another area. So some of the hospitals are easing up and are hiring ADN grads again. I guess that they finally got tired of waiting for something that's not even abundantly available in our area.

There are so many RN-BSN programs on line that not having a school in the area shouldn't be an impediment except for the new grads. The hospital could make a deal with an on-line program for a tuition reduction. The agency I work for has a deal with University of Phoenix for a break in the tuition. I had already started my BSN at another school though and I am almost finished with it too. I do feel the BSN should be the a standard for new nurses to aspire to, and I think young nurses should aim for the MSN! However, that is not to diminish the experience and value of nurses who came from diploma and ADN programs that have been working in the field for a number of years. I believe in life-time education though! I understand why if you had been working in the field for 20 years and you were 50 some years old you may be reticent to pursue the BSN. I am a second career nurse and so nursing is new and exciting and I'm happy to learn about it. If I had been asked to get a degree in the field I worked in for 28 years before retiring and coming to nursing, I would not have had the heart for it at all. I knew I was done with that field, which I had at one time really enjoyed and had pursued further training in passionately. It got to the point I knew I didn't want to learn any more about that technology, so I left that. I am really enjoying nursing and it has given me a second wind for working another 10 years or so, God willing.

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In response to BostonFNP:

"You can keep slinging that it is a "false" idea but you have yet to provide any evidence at all to support it."

You still haven't provided or mentioned one shred of evidence other than that put forth by the people who stand to gain by the increased flow of students into four year college and university nursing programs.

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Quote from Ivn2bsoon:

"The studies are out there. Apparently, ADN's aren't taught EBP? Research? If anyone works for Kaiser, they can tell you about EBP, patient outcomes, and education."

Not true; any quality nursing program whether ADN or Associates incorporates research into its curriculum. Evidence based research was a big part of my 3 year diploma program. Not only were we required to make presentations of findings to peers but to hospital management as well.

So you can stop with the acronyms such as EBP and EBR that people try to use to show intelligence. The flawed Aiken study that nurse academic elitists loved to trumpet was riddled with that terminology. And since it was dissected and picked apart for what is, mere propaganda, even they're not trumpeting the study anymore.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

You're implying more causation than actually exists. Nurses in metropolitan areas make more on average due to cost of living, adjusted for cost of living they make about the same. With BSN programs concentrated in metropolitan areas, you're more likely to find BSN nurses in these areas.

So no, it's not that Nurses average significantly more because they have a BSN, they average more because they live in metropolitan areas, which also means they are more likely to have a BSN.

Interesting, what study is this from?

The last study I remember reading was from the 2008-2009 range that showed an even distribution of where nurses live though more ADNs commuted out of the metro areas.

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Specializes in Critical Care.
Interesting, what study is this from?

The last study I remember reading was from the 2008-2009 range that showed an even distribution of where nurses live though more ADNs commuted out of the metro areas.

A report from the University of Washington (2007)

RN's in urban areas with BSN degrees or higher made up 51% of working RN's in 2004, while they only made up 36% of all RN's working in rural areas. (This was by rural vs urban residence).

A report from UPenn (2008 or later)

"There was a significant difference in the proportion of BSN certified nurses employed in hospitals in rural and urban areas. The mean proportion of BSn certified Nurses employed in a rural hospital was 29% vs 40% in an urban hospital"

A report from the IOM/National academy of sciences

" But another important factor is the geographic distribution of ADN programs, which are more likely to be offered in rural and other medically underserved communities than are BSN programs in American colleges and universities. The Urban Institute,

in its recent study of the nursing workforce, reported that medical personnel,

including nurses, tend to work near where they are trained, so the distribution of

support for nursing education matters (Bovbjerg et al., 2009). Nursing personnel

are needed in virtually every community in America, and ADN programs help

ensure that the nation has a broader geographic distribution of nursing personnel

than we could attain with BSN graduates alone.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

A report from the University of Washington (2007)

RN's in urban areas with BSN degrees or higher made up 51% of working RN's in 2004, while they only made up 36% of all RN's working in rural areas. (This was by rural vs urban residence).

A report from UPenn (2008 or later)

"There was a significant difference in the proportion of BSN certified nurses employed in hospitals in rural and urban areas. The mean proportion of BSn certified Nurses employed in a rural hospital was 29% vs 40% in an urban hospital"

A report from the IOM/National academy of sciences

" But another important factor is the geographic distribution of ADN programs, which are more likely to be offered in rural and other medically underserved communities than are BSN programs in American colleges and universities. The Urban Institute,

in its recent study of the nursing workforce, reported that medical personnel,

including nurses, tend to work near where they are trained, so the distribution of

support for nursing education matters (Bovbjerg et al., 2009). Nursing personnel

are needed in virtually every community in America, and ADN programs help

ensure that the nation has a broader geographic distribution of nursing personnel

than we could attain with BSN graduates alone.

That certainly looks legit and logically makes sense. It is unclear how many of those live in metro and reverse commute to get jobs.

I know from personal experience that two of the major hospital systems pay the same hourly rate (though no longer hire ADNs, at least new grads). The big LTC company here pays with a $1.50/hr base difference and still hires some new grad ADNs; the base rate in LTC is almost $10/hr less than the big hospitals.

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Specializes in Critical Care.
That certainly looks legit and logically makes sense. It is unclear how many of those live in metro and reverse commute to get jobs.

I know from personal experience that two of the major hospital systems pay the same hourly rate (though no longer hire ADNs, at least new grads). The big LTC company here pays with a $1.50/hr base difference and still hires some new grad ADNs; the base rate in LTC is almost $10/hr less than the big hospitals.

The UPenn report looked at the location of where the RN's worked and the University of Washington report looked at where they lived, so it would appear at least according to these samples that whether you're looking at where they live or where they work, BSN's tend to be more concentrated in metropolitan areas relative to their overall prevalence.

When my state looked at making BSN a requirement, we surveyed pay differences in various facilities. We found some, but not all, hospitals paid as much as $1 more an hour for a BSN. Even where BSN degrees were figured into a clinical ladder system it still worked out to $1/hour or less. For the typical Nurse that would take about 15 years before you actually start making more due to the price difference in obtaining a BSN degree.

LTC does pay less but we didn't notice any difference based on degree in LTC's. At least with our current ADN/BSN level of entry, BSN's can make more than ADN's by taking over the more lucrative hospital positions, if BSN is the only option then it will be al BSN's getting paid $10 an hour less.

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Specializes in Critical Care.
I don't think anyone is arguing that but then again I think you're missing the argument.

I don't doubt I'm better off in general because I have a bachelor's degree in addition to my BSN, and I'd probably be better off if I had a doctorate, or even better, two doctorates. So it only makes sense we should require all Nurses to have two bachelors degrees, and two doctorates, right?

I noticed that came off as more snippy than I meant.

There are a long list of things that could potentially make someone a better person and therefore a better Nurse. Steve Jobs credits his LSD use with much of his success, that doesn't necessarily mean we should require all potential Nurses to use LSD. Art History can help broaden someone's perception of the world which in turn can make them a better Nurse, but I don't think we should make an art history class mandatory to be a Nurse.

This brings up one of the main things we should be concerned about when considered making BSN the entry to practice. In recent years, the number of students attending ADN program who were entering Nursing as a second career rose dramatically. These students are starting Nursing school with a wealth of life experience which I believe is particularly helpful in Nursing. The same isn't true of BSN programs. Second career students often have mortgages, kids in school, spouses with jobs they can't leave; they can't just up and move to the nearest BSN school which may be hours away. Losing ADN students would mean losing students who's general knowledge grew exponentially between high school and Nursing school, compared to typical BSN students who had just a summer vacation between high school and Nursing school.

Then there's also the loss of clinical experience opportunities, lack of diversity, etc.

The main problem is that we found the only practical way to make BSN the entry to practice is to keep the ADN programs in place, but rename them as BSN programs. As ADN programs have transitioned to BSN curriculum, this change would mean students would be taking the same classes, just paying much more for them. This would add about 45 credits of electives, although it's unlikely that it was the extra art history classes that produced the potential differences in BSN Nurses. We asked for an estimate of what our State BSN universities would charge to change the letters on an ADN grads diploma to BSN, and the response was around $20,000, which seemed excessive if the same changes can be made to improve ADN education without having to call it a BSN in the end.

I completely agree that ADN programs need to catch up to the entry standards of BSN programs, the prerequisites of BSN programs, and the curriculum of BSN programs, but as Nursing programs have become in demand by those transitioning careers the stringency of admission has become similar, and the transition to BSN prerequisites and curriculum is already well under way.

The main issue is that no study has suggested that it's simply the term "BSN" that can potentially make for better Nurses, it's more likely it's the components of a BSN program that could account for that difference and those components can be obtained without having to use the term "BSN", which really just adds $20,000 to the equation, and I don't think it's empowering to Nursing to take a $20,000 pay cut.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

I noticed that came off as more snippy than I meant.

There are a long list of things that could potentially make someone a better person and therefore a better Nurse. Steve Jobs credits his LSD use with much of his success, that doesn't necessarily mean we should require all potential Nurses to use LSD. Art History can help broaden someone's perception of the world which in turn can make them a better Nurse, but I don't think we should make an art history class mandatory to be a Nurse.

This brings up one of the main things we should be concerned about when considered making BSN the entry to practice. In recent years, the number of students attending ADN program who were entering Nursing as a second career rose dramatically. These students are starting Nursing school with a wealth of life experience which I believe is particularly helpful in Nursing. The same isn't true of BSN programs. Second career students often have mortgages, kids in school, spouses with jobs they can't leave; they can't just up and move to the nearest BSN school which may be hours away. Losing ADN students would mean losing students who's general knowledge grew exponentially between high school and Nursing school, compared to typical BSN students who had just a summer vacation between high school and Nursing school.

Then there's also the loss of clinical experience opportunities, lack of diversity, etc.

The main problem is that we found the only practical way to make BSN the entry to practice is to keep the ADN programs in place, but rename them as BSN programs. As ADN programs have transitioned to BSN curriculum, this change would mean students would be taking the same classes, just paying much more for them. This would add about 45 credits of electives, although it's unlikely that it was the extra art history classes that produced the potential differences in BSN Nurses. We asked for an estimate of what our State BSN universities would charge to change the letters on an ADN grads diploma to BSN, and the response was around $20,000, which seemed excessive if the same changes can be made to improve ADN education without having to call it a BSN in the end.

I completely agree that ADN programs need to catch up to the entry standards of BSN programs, the prerequisites of BSN programs, and the curriculum of BSN programs, but as Nursing programs have become in demand by those transitioning careers the stringency of admission has become similar, and the transition to BSN prerequisites and curriculum is already well under way.

The main issue is that no study has suggested that it's simply the term "BSN" that can potentially make for better Nurses, it's more likely it's the components of a BSN program that could account for that difference and those components can be obtained without having to use the term "BSN", which really just adds $20,000 to the equation, and I don't think it's empowering to Nursing to take a $20,000 pay cut.

You don't ever have to worry about being "snippy" at least with me. It's not a personal thing for me and I wouldn't be offended by it. I am not a bedside nurse anymore and I live in a very metropolitan region and I am a bit jaded by that.

I think we agree on many things. I think that many ADN programs deserve to grant BSN credit by the number of credit hours they require and their reputation; in this situation I think the ADNs deserve credit for what they have completed and paid for. I think the "I couldn't get in anywhere else" diploma/ADN programs need to go. Similarly, the diploma-mill BSN programs need to go. Maybe states should look at NCLEX pass rates more stringently: drop those one or two STD below the norm and invest in those above the norm.

I really have no problem with grandfathering in current nurses, though I would hope many would choose to continue ed, the market would control that.

In my opinion there would be three entries for nursing: ASN-LPN( 2 year), BSN-RN(3-4 year) DNP-APRN(6-7 year).

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In response to BostonFNP,

"I haven't been a bedside RN in three years. I am willing I bet I could more than keep up with you in the floor with your how many years experience?"

You may be able to run circles around me on the floor. I really don't care. My point was that requiring nurses who haven't done patient care in over 10 years to go through remediation to renew their their license is much less ludicrous that telling a nurse with 25 years experience and specialty certifications in areas such as ICU and Trauma that they must earn a BSN within 3 years or risk termination.

Actually I'm glad many of these academic elitists are sitting in university ivory towers and not treating patients. With the short-sightedness and inability to think outside the university box that I see coming from them, I wouldn't want them trying to take care of myself nor any of my friends or family members.

A top figure in my state's nurse's association told me that is nurse is not a professional unless they have a BSN. This person recently attended a summit with representatives from all the state's nursing associations who felt the same way and are pushing for BSN mandates. And they are all affiliated with four year colleges and universities.

How does it make all you nurses out there who have graduated from associate's and diploma programs feel that the people who are supposed to represent you don't even think of you as professionals. That's why I stopped paying dues to my state nurse's association. I felt they represent themselves and not all nurses.

And if BSN nurses are supposedly better prepared, it is certainly not reflected in the NCLEX pass rates below.

https://www.ncsbn.org/Table_of_Pass_Rates_2011.pdf

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Specializes in SICU/CVICU.
In response to BostonFNP,

"I haven't been a bedside RN in three years. I am willing I bet I could more than keep up with you in the floor with your how many years experience?"

You may be able to run circles around me on the floor. I really don't care. My point was that requiring nurses who haven't done patient care in over 10 years to go through remediation to renew their their license is much less ludicrous that telling a nurse with 25 years experience and specialty certifications in areas such as ICU and Trauma that they must earn a BSN within 3 years or risk termination.

Actually I'm glad many of these academic elitists are sitting in university ivory towers and not treating patients. With the short-sightedness and inability to think outside the university box that I see coming from them, I wouldn't want them trying to take care of myself nor any of my friends or family members.

A top figure in my state's nurse's association told me that is nurse is not a professional unless they have a BSN. This person recently attended a summit with representatives from all the state's nursing associations who felt the same way and are pushing for BSN mandates. And they are all affiliated with four year colleges and universities.

How does it make all you nurses out there who have graduated from associate's and diploma programs feel that the people who are supposed to represent you don't even think of you as professionals. That's why I stopped paying dues to my state nurse's association. I felt they represent themselves and not all nurses.

And if BSN nurses are supposedly better prepared, it is certainly not reflected in the NCLEX pass rates below.

https://www.ncsbn.org/Table_of_Pass_Rates_2011.pdf

After reading all your posts, I get that you are opposed to the BSN, but I am not sure why. If you want to be a nurse, it only makes sense to me that you would get a bachelor's degree in nursing. If I wanted to be a pharmacist, I wouldn't get a degree in biochemistry and expect to be a pharmacist, I would get a degree in pharmacy. I truly don't understand why people who get degrees in other disciplines think that this automatically translates to a degree in nursing--all college degrees are not the same and certainly not interchangeable.

The future of nursing lies in education. You can choose to embrace this, or be left behind. The choice is yours. And just to set the record straight, BSN nurses can also have 25 years of experience and multiple speciality certifications and can take excellent care of their patients. Education is never wasted!

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
In response to BostonFNP,

And if BSN nurses are supposedly better prepared, it is certainly not reflected in the NCLEX pass rates below.

https://www.ncsbn.org/Table_of_Pass_Rates_2011.pdf

That shows a significant difference between BSN and ADN pass rates....

There is no significant difference between diploma and BSN pass rates. That may be due to a small sample size in the diploma group, may not.

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