ADN's being pushed out

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I work for a large Magnet hospital. As nursing becomes more popular, and nurses not in short supply, I have noticed something ominous has being going on lately. Several of our older and very seasoned ADN nurses are being fired. The excuses for firing are ridiculous. I have sadly seen some excellent nurses lose their jobs. I am wondering if they want to get rid of the ADNs so they can look "better" with an all BSN staff. Or perhaps they want rid of older nurses who have been there longer because they are higher on the pay scale. Either way, it is very scarey. I myself am BSN, and i am not ashamed to say that what I know does not hold a candle to these fired nurses. Any thoughts?

Response to BostonFNP,

"A nurse with a doctorate is not necessarily a "better nurse" than a nurse with an ADN. That is not the "theory" at all, and it shows how little you truly understand the issue at hand."

In a previous posting by you on May 10, you said that more education makes you a better provider. Again, by that logic, a nurse with a master's or a doctorate will always be a better provider than one with a BSN, Associate's or diploma.

So which is it?

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
Response to BostonFNP,

"A nurse with a doctorate is not necessarily a "better nurse" than a nurse with an ADN. That is not the "theory" at all, and it shows how little you truly understand the issue at hand."

In a previous posting by you on May 10, you said that more education makes you a better provider. Again, by that logic, a nurse with a master's or a doctorate will always be a better provider than one with a BSN, Associate's or diploma.

So which is it?

More education makes you a better provider, it does not (necessarily) make someone else a better provider than you.

Those are the exact same statements. Where is the confusion?

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Specializes in Critical Care.

In my opinion there would be three entries for nursing: ASN-LPN( 2 year), BSN-RN(3-4 year) DNP-APRN(6-7 year).

It sounds like you're suggesting the associates degree should move backwards and become a 1 year core program. We cant fill our bedside direct care needs with BSNs, so that means our biggest foothold in healthcare would take a big step backwards, maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

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Specializes in Critical Care.

I'm still not sure why, when there are many RN's practicing with two bachelor's degrees, why we would allow some RN's to practice with only one.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

It sounds like you're suggesting the associates degree should move backwards and become a 1 year core program. We cant fill our bedside direct care needs with BSNs, so that means our biggest foothold in healthcare would take a big step backwards, maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

I consider it a step forward for everyone.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
In response to BostonFNP,

And if BSN nurses are supposedly better prepared, it is certainly not reflected in the NCLEX pass rates below.

https://www.ncsbn.org/Table_of_Pass_Rates_2011.pdf

I am still curious why you posted this link, as it works against your argument not for it....

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Specializes in Critical Care.
I consider it a step forward for everyone.

I'm not sure how it's a step forward for bedside nurses, arguably the public face of Nursing, to go from a 2 year core Nursing program to 1 year.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

I'm not sure how it's a step forward for bedside nurses, arguably the public face of Nursing, to go from a 2 year core Nursing program to 1 year.

I don't think I ever advocated for a 1 year program, if I did I misspoke. These are simply my thoughts, and I hold no real weight in policy or regulation change.

I would grandfather in anyone with a current license who maintains a current license. For all new grads:

Two year core program for a base entry of a vocational-focused nurse. (ADN-LPN)

Three plus year core program for a full scope RN nurse. (BSN-RN)

Three plus year post grad program for APN nurse. (DNP-APN)

There would be a slight 1-2 year period when RN-level new grads would be lower than demand. This would drive the market for RNs back up or at least even it out. Same thing at the APN level.

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Specializes in Critical Care.

I've heard similar suggestions, so i'm not suggesting you're way out of the mainstream, but just to clarify:

Currently both ADN and BSN programs are about 2 years worth of "core" program; some BSN and ADN programs mistakenly create the impression they have 3 years of "core" classes, but really they just include their pre-reqs in their "core" program (A&P, micro, etc), so in order to make a BSN a 3 year "core" to separate it from ADN's, we'd have to add another year to make a distinct separation between ADN and BSN nurses. Since ADN's currently make up more than half of all RN grads, it wouldn't be possible for BSN grads to take over bedside Nursing, so I'm not sure what the role of BSN's would be other than working at the bedside with more of a degree than they needed.

One thing to remember is that there are hospital administrators all over the country wondering why we need RN's at all. A shortage of bedside RN's would be a dream come true, there would be no resistance to replacing RN's with Techs who make $10 an hour. Nursing as we currently know it would no longer exist. If there is little purpose to getting a BSN then BSN's would be a rarity, which will mean fewer NP's and DNP's down the road. There's no guarantee that in today's healthcare environment Nursing will continue to exist, although I think we'd have to go out of our way to make Nursing go extinct, and this would seem to be the one thing we could do to ensure our demise.

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It's for the greater good of nursing as a profession. Nurses are looks down upon. People think nurses are nothing but physicians assistants or handmaidens. That we are subpar practitioners. As much as these misconceptions bother me, there are reasons nurses don't have the recognition they should. To be considered exports, scientists, practitioners and autonomous professionals nursing needs to get rid of all these technical/ vocational entry points. (LPN, ADN) Other clinicians like physicians, PA's, pharmacists, or social workers don't have associate degrees. Why should nurses? I think nurses should have to undergo a similar pre-nursing tract as pre-meds are required. This is the only way we will progress as health care providers.

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To BostonFNP:

"I am still curious why you posted this link, as it works against your argument not for it...."

It clearly shows the pass rates for diploma graduates are higher than those who graduated from BSN programs. So how can anyone make a blanket statement that BSN graduates are better prepared if they have lower pass rates on a state exam which upon passing only qualifies a nurse at the bare minimum to provide patient care.

But it doesn't matter. I was contacted by one of the major news networks who is interested in the angle of degree inflation. As I said, I plan to do everything in my power to expose this degree inflation nonsense for the garbage it is. And so far, not you or anyone else has been able to provide anything to the contrary other than information contrived by those affiliated with institutions who want to benefit by having nurses run back to school.

And just so all nurses know, if they get you all running back for BSNs, they will push the master's degree next. That was implied by my state nurse's association. So if you want to be running back to school and in debt for the rest of your lives, sit back and accept it. I choose not to accept it and expose these people for the money-grubbing phonies they really are. Remember these people don't care about nurses or patients, they only care care about their own self-interests.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
To BostonFNP:

It clearly shows the pass rates for diploma graduates are higher than those who graduated from BSN programs. So how can anyone make a blanket statement that BSN graduates are better prepared if they have lower pass rates on a state exam which upon passing only qualifies a nurse at the bare minimum to provide patient care.

A few important things:

Th NCLEX is a national exam not a state exam.

There is no statistically significant difference between diploma pass rates and BSN pass rates.

There is a statistically significant difference between BSN and ADN pass rates.

Do you understand why it is important to look at significance not just the raw data? Without statistical significance you can not claim superiority of one over the other.

Objectively if i were going to publish in this, looking at the 2011 data in isolation and using NCLEX pass rates as a measure of outcome, I would conclude that there is no superiority of BSN programs over diploma programs. There is superiority of BSN programs over ADN programs.

I realize you chose to link to the 2011 data because it seems like the raw data supports your position. So why did you choose the 2011 data and not the 2012 or 2013 data?

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