ADN's being pushed out

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I work for a large Magnet hospital. As nursing becomes more popular, and nurses not in short supply, I have noticed something ominous has being going on lately. Several of our older and very seasoned ADN nurses are being fired. The excuses for firing are ridiculous. I have sadly seen some excellent nurses lose their jobs. I am wondering if they want to get rid of the ADNs so they can look "better" with an all BSN staff. Or perhaps they want rid of older nurses who have been there longer because they are higher on the pay scale. Either way, it is very scarey. I myself am BSN, and i am not ashamed to say that what I know does not hold a candle to these fired nurses. Any thoughts?

If there is any doubt that the purpose of the Aiken study was not to undertake an unbiased research project to look at how different levels of nursing education affect patient outcomes; but to manufacture pseudo-data that colleges and universities could use to get nurses running back to school, read these two lines published a little over two years ago.

"Aiken and her colleagues concluded that recruiting nurses from bachelor's degree programs rather than two-year associate degree programs could lead to substantial improvements in care", Nursing Spectrum, March 7, 2011, p.18

"Aiken says she isn't sure that states are moving quickly toward requiring BSNs", Nursing Spectrum, March 7, 2011, p.19

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Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.

"Aiken and her colleagues concluded that recruiting nurses from bachelor's degree programs rather than two-year associate degree programs could lead to substantial improvements in care", Nursing Spectrum, March 7, 2011, p.18

"Aiken says she isn't sure that states are moving quickly toward requiring BSNs", Nursing Spectrum, March 7, 2011, p.19

COULD is the operative word...not WOULD...

hence "suggestion", not absolute...

If anything, that's the author's interpretation, not Aiken, colleagues or any other PI.

Again, with my two eyes and using literature that cited Aiken (I used the Canadian study, and a few studies outside of the US; I even used one that piloted a sim study) to me, it solidifies Benner's theory on Novice to Expert...more experience and education, begats a competent nurse.

I also agree with MunoRN's post...What's the true process and solution should our profession take?

I stated, we should be ensuring the transition from novice to expert in all areas of nursing; if anything, the research can interpret that an knowledgeable nurse is a competent nurse...knowledge is power. :yes:

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Why do nurses feel the need, the bring out study after study to prove which degree provides the best patient outcomes, etc, ad nauseum?

See my thread from two days ago. PTs,OTs, Pharmacists, etc, ALL INCREASED THEIR ENTRY PRATICE IN THE RECENT PAST!

NO one wa wringing their hands, over studies, surveys, etc, that proved, one was better than the other, in producing better outcomes. They grandfathered in older members, who did not want to attain the higer degree. No one was left out in the cold, no one trashed anyone else, and it ALL WORKED OUT FINE!!

Again, why are nurses making this such an issue. The entry into practice needs to be increases to a BSN AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE FOR ALL NEWCOMERS TO NURSING. EVERYONE ELSE GETS GRANDFATHERED IN!!

Was that so hard?? If nursing would get its act together, this can happen painlessly. Quit the backbiting, realizing that is the hospitals' way of keeping nursing divided, fighting each other, rather than the hospitals, insurance companies, and the AHA, and the AMA. period.

Make it a practice to improve the workplace, meet outside of the hospital, call the NNOC, and UNIONIZE! It is the only way to protect our professional practice, and protect ourselves. WE MUST UNITE for the COMMON GOOD FOR OURSELVES, AND OUR PATIENTS. It is the patients who suffer when we cannot do our jobs effectively.

We will never be able to do our jobs the way they should be done, if we continue to have to care for more patients than is safe. We ALL KNOW THAT, now it is our turn to inform the public of it. Get the public on your side for safe staffing!

JMHO and my NY $0.02

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCCRN (ret)

Somewhere in the PACNW

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Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.

Lindarn....perfect timing. ;)

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Specializes in Critical Care.
Why do nurses feel the need, the bring out study after study to prove which degree provides the best patient outcomes, etc, ad nauseum?

See my thread from two days ago. PTs,OTs, Pharmacists, etc, ALL INCREASED THEIR ENTRY PRATICE IN THE RECENT PAST!

NO one wa wringing their hands, over studies, surveys, etc, that proved, one was better than the other, in producing better outcomes. They grandfathered in older members, who did not want to attain the higer degree. No one was left out in the cold, no one trashed anyone else, and it ALL WORKED OUT FINE!!

Again, why are nurses making this such an issue. The entry into practice needs to be increases to a BSN AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE FOR ALL NEWCOMERS TO NURSING. EVERYONE ELSE GETS GRANDFATHERED IN!!

Was that so hard?? If nursing would get its act together, this can happen painlessly. Quit the backbiting, realizing that is the hospitals' way of keeping nursing divided, fighting each other, rather than the hospitals, insurance companies, and the AHA, and the AMA. period.

Make it a practice to improve the workplace, meet outside of the hospital, call the NNOC, and UNIONIZE! It is the only way to protect our professional practice, and protect ourselves. WE MUST UNITE for the COMMON GOOD FOR OURSELVES, AND OUR PATIENTS. It is the patients who suffer when we cannot do our jobs effectively.

We will never be able to do our jobs the way they should be done, if we continue to have to care for more patients than is safe. We ALL KNOW THAT, now it is our turn to inform the public of it. Get the public on your side for safe staffing!

JMHO and my NY $0.02

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCCRN (ret)

Somewhere in the PACNW

The problem is that instead of grandfathering in the older ADN Rn's, hospitals are pressuring and some are demanding them to go back to school for the BSN, while providing only token tuition reimbursement under threat of being fired!

That is the difference between nursing and other fields. I have never heard of PT or pharmacists being required to go back to school to get a higher degree just to keep their current job. This is what is what makes the nursing situation different and is alarming and disrespectful. To expect older nurses especially forties and fifties or sixties to go back to school and incur student loan debt at a time that they have other more important financial priorities is disrespectful and outright dangerous! Those nurses later in life have less time to pay off the loans before retirement and ignores the risk that the loans won't be paid off either due to illness, accident, or unemployment and then the nurse will find their social security garnished till they die! Tell me how is this a good solution for the nurses at risk! Truth be told there is no guarantee that even if you get the BSN you won't get laid off, fired or become unable to work due to illness or work injury, but the student loan must be repaid. There is no bankruptcy option for student loans, even if you are declared disabled they will still garnish your disability. Then you have to appeal and try to get them to accept that you are fully and permanently disabled before the loans will be written off! If you are one of the rare ones that do get them to forgive the debt, then you have another financial mess on your hands as you will face ordinary income taxes on that amount and then that must be paid off!

Certification seems a more relevant, reasonable and cost effective way to improve quality of patient care! If hospitals are concerned about quality let them encourage or even mandate certifications in their field, not BSNs!

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Specializes in Hospice, corrections, psychiatry, rehab, LTC.
I do have some questions? I am a RN with an ASN degree and 18 credits into a RN-BSN program. Why are we labeling ourselves? I am not a ADN, ASN, future BSN. I am (name) a Registered Nurse.

Also why BSN's, why not BDN's? ADN is not my degree, its ASN. I have never met someone with a BDN or ADN on there diploma. Just an observation. Why can't we all just be Nurses?

Very well put. There are those who choose to divide the profession for various reasons. Some will profit from students going to school longer, while others seek to divide RNs into subclasses, with themselves at the top.

As far as the differences in clinical preparation, the comments I have heard have come from nurses on the floor. Most expressed a marked preference for working with my class versus the various BSN programs that came through. That said, each path has its pluses and minuses, and I don't believe that one is necessarily better than the other. What matters is what is in your heart and your head as you practice your profession.

My degree is actually an AAS (Associate of Applied Science) in Nursing.

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Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Why do nurses feel the need, the bring out study after study to prove which degree provides the best patient outcomes, etc, ad nauseum?

*** To be fair only one side of the issue is doing that.

See my thread from two days ago. PTs,OTs, Pharmacists, etc, ALL INCREASED THEIR ENTRY PRATICE IN THE RECENT PAST!

*** Yes, we all know that. So what? Just because they jumped over the degree inflation cliff doesn't mean we should. Are they making more money? Have their scope of practice increased? Have they been granted greater autonomy?

NO one wa wringing their hands, over studies, surveys, etc, that proved, one was better than the other, in producing better outcomes. They grandfathered in older members, who did not want to attain the higer degree. No one was left out in the cold, no one trashed anyone else, and it ALL WORKED OUT FINE!!

*** You already one big difference between them and nurses. They granfathered in all those who didn't have a doctorate. So far as I know PTs and OTs & pharmacists who do not hold the newly required degree are not having trouble finding jobs. I have never seen a "doctorate prefered" or "required" in a PT or pharm job opening. We DO see BSN prefered or required job listings. In the examples you gave there was NO attempt to push anyone out into the unemployment wasteland. Not true for those advocating for a required BSN in nursing.

A much better question for you to ask is why does nursing, and nursing alone, seem to want to punish and push out those without the degree? Answer that and I think you will find the answer to why so many people take an opposing view.

Again, why are nurses making this such an issue. The entry into practice needs to be increases to a BSN AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE FOR ALL NEWCOMERS TO NURSING.

*** BSN doesn't "need" to be the entry to practice. You WANT it to be. In my opinion such a requirment would eliminate a lot of people from nursing who I feel are indespensable to nursing. I DON'T WANT us to be the same kind of people who are attracted to pharmacy or PT. I believe that nursing benifits tremdously from the diversity of people who are able to enter the field through the local community college.

EVERYONE ELSE GETS GRANDFATHERED IN!!

*** In my observation you are a lone voice for grandfathering of those on your side of the issue.

Was that so hard??

*** It is the advocates fro BSN as entry to practice who you need to convince. It may not be hard but it is undesirable for many of us.

If nursing would get its act together, this can happen painlessly. Quit the backbiting, realizing that is the hospitals' way of keeping nursing divided, fighting each other, rather than the hospitals, insurance companies, and the AHA, and the AMA. period.

*** I agree it is a way of keeping us divided. If the advocates of BSN as entry would stop trying to eliminate the ADN nurses we could focus our attention on fighting the others you mentioned.

Make it a practice to improve the workplace, meet outside of the hospital, call the NNOC, and UNIONIZE! It is the only way to protect our professional practice, and protect ourselves. WE MUST UNITE for the COMMON GOOD FOR OURSELVES, AND OUR PATIENTS. It is the patients who suffer when we cannot do our jobs effectively.

*** While I agree 100% with you about unions, and hope to never again work in a non-union hospital, I find it off topic.

We will never be able to do our jobs the way they should be done, if we continue to have to care for more patients than is safe. We ALL KNOW THAT, now it is our turn to inform the public of it. Get the public on your side for safe staffing!

*** Tell it sister!

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In response to PMFB-RN:

Everything you said is right on the money. It's what I've been fighting against for the last couple of years. Because of one flawed, biased study which academic elitists convinced those in hospital management to believe as gospel, thousands of new nurse graduates are unable to find jobs and get that much needed experience that will help them become seasoned nurses.

I've spoke OTs, PTs and Pharmacists. They told me the degree inflation in their fields did nothing to elevate those professions. The only thing it did was elevate the amount of tuition required to become a practitioner in those professions.

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Specializes in Clinical Research, Outpt Women's Health.

"They grandfathered in older members, who did not want to attain the higer degree. No one was left out in the cold, no one trashed anyone else, and it ALL WORKED OUT FINE!!"

If that was the case I would be fine with it, but that is not what they are doing.

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Explain to me how more education (4 years vs 2) does NOT make you a better nurse?? How, exactly is an ADN better prepared than a BSN? That is nonsense. And guess who else thinks so?? Magnet and most other hospitals, pharma and research companies, universities, etc. If you are fine with an ADN that's great, but don't try to belittle those whose took the incentive for a more well-rounded education. Or in my case, a MSN.

The well hidden fact is it takes 4 years to acquire the ADN, and that is if you are lucky enough to get ALL your pre-req's completed in that amount of time- yes, A&P 1 &2, Micro, etc....all the same classes a BSN takes the first 2 yrs of their schooling. We are NOT less schooled, just less in debt because we opted for a more cost effective version of the same darn license- RN, same NCLEX exam, same pay scale as the BSN at least in PA. From a debt/income perspective, I would only invest in an MSN, not a BSN. Just a perspective from an ADN student with a long term financial plan in regards to debt & her education.

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Specializes in Nursing Professional Development.
The well hidden fact is it takes 4 years to acquire the ADN, and that is if you are lucky enough to get ALL your pre-req's completed in that amount of time- yes, A&P 1 &2, Micro, etc....all the same classes a BSN takes the first 2 yrs of their schooling. We are NOT less schooled, just less in debt because we opted for a more cost effective version of the same darn license- RN, same NCLEX exam, same pay scale as the BSN at least in PA. From a debt/income perspective, I would only invest in an MSN, not a BSN. Just a perspective from an ADN student with a long term financial plan in regards to debt & her education.

That's not true in many cases. You can't assume that every program is like the one you are most familiar with .Yes, there are some ADN programs that have expanded to the point of having ALMOST as many requirements as a typical BSN ... but there are still plenty of short ADN programs out there. In my town, you can get an ADN in 15 months -- right out of high school with no pre-reqs. There is no legitimate BSN program out there that short. And the existence of those "quickie" ADN programs adds fuel to the debate. Until nursing eliminates those ADN programs -- or categorizes them as "non-professional" -- ADN advocates are going to have a hard time convincing people that there is no difference between ADN's and BSN's.

If your program really had the same requirements as a BSN, then should be very angry at your school for not giving you that higher credential for the work you did. You'll have to invest more time and money to get the credential that you should have gotten in the first place. They exploited you and that's not right. If you did the work worthy of a BSN, they you deserve that credential and shame on your school for ripping you off.

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Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
That's not true in many cases. Yes, there are some ADN programs that have expanded to the point of having ALMOST as many requirements as a typical BSN ... but there are still plenty of short ADN programs out there. In my town, you can get an ADN in 15 months -- right out of high school with no pre-reqs. There is no legitimate BSN program out there that short.

*** You can get a BSN in 12 months in my state. Anyone with zero health care experience and a degree in underwater basket weaving can become an RN BSN in 12 months.

http://www.uwosh.edu/con/college-of-nursing-programs/undergraduate-bsn/accelerated-online-bachelors-to-bsn

I take your point though and it's a good one. The universities who offer the 12 month BSN in my state are real universities and their 12 month BSN programs are good ones. Not anything like the for profit diploma mills you are talking about.

I actually went from zero college credit to ADN RN in 9 months including a month off for the holidays. I m a special case though and went to a legitimate NLN accredited community college nursing program.

I agree with you and would LOVE to get rid of these for profit, hugely expensive diploma mills, including the ones that grant bachelors degrees.

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