ADN's being pushed out

[MSN Student]

I work for a large Magnet hospital. As nursing becomes more popular, and nurses not in short supply, I have noticed something ominous has being going on lately. Several of our older and very seasoned ADN nurses are being fired. The excuses for firing are ridiculous. I have sadly seen some excellent nurses lose their jobs. I am wondering if they want to get rid of the ADNs so they can look "better" with an all BSN staff. Or perhaps they want rid of older nurses who have been there longer because they are higher on the pay scale. Either way, it is very scarey. I myself am BSN, and i am not ashamed to say that what I know does not hold a candle to these fired nurses. Any thoughts?

[Ellekat2]

I worked for ten years on a clinical floor for two ADN programs and one BSN program. The ADN students were more involved with their assignments and well prepared. The BSN students refused to give baths, would be down the hall in their break room when their patients needed something and often didn't really know what was going on with their patients. The ADN students helped with all the patients on the floor and asked a lot of questions. I think the true difference is the attitude that some (not all) BSN students have that they are superior and don't need to dirty their hands. As for BSNs with internships-I worked with a nurse who had first been a BSN student, then an intern, on our floor. As a new hire on our floor, she didn't feel it was her job to answer call lights-the two aides (for 30 patients) were supposed to do that while SHE read a novel. She was not a knowledgeable nurse, but was able to move into the administrative ranks where she can (and does) now really make life miserable for nurses who actually take care of their patients. And she is only one of several. Experience with BSN nurses has made me question the value of the BSN in its present form. And now I see the push for the MSN nurse. I can't believe the average MSN-prepared nurse will want to do hands-on work on a med-surg floor. So who will be taking care of the complex, chronically ill patient who also is hospitalized with an acute need but is not in ICU? Will there be anyone besides an aide on the floor to actually physically care for the patients?

[Kencanwin]

So, in general, if a student can't cut it at a 4-year school, then they can't cut it at a 2-year school either, and vice-versa.

Well said.

[Bethany69]

I live in the Houston area, and all the magnet hospitals will only hire B.S.N. graduates or higher and test for nicotine now too as part of the pre-employment physical. This area is saturated with B.S.N. graduates because of the Medical Center downtown Houston, and all of the nursing schools in this area pumping out graduates, who can not get jobs here, unless they have experience or a B.S.N. That is just the way it is here. I have been doing TPAPN for over two years and have yet to get a job that meets TPAPN's criteria, so I have been pursuing my B.S.N., because I realized real quick while interviewing over the last two years that I would need one. I have learned a whole lot in this curriculum, but mostly how to research and how to use Word really well. It is a lot of busy work, but it takes dedication, discipline, and hard work to achieve. There were many things I did not know how to do on the computer before. But I have become the Microsoft Word/computer guru. That is all a Bachelor's degree means to me. It better prepares you for management, and professional leadership positions. It creates leaders. I recently found out that after going for a little over a year in the B.S.N. program that I have to have a job in order to be able to take the last two nursing classes before the final Capstone course. So, I am stuck in more ways than one.

[OCNRN63, RN]

I live in the Houston area, and all the magnet hospitals will only hire B.S.N. graduates or higher and test for nicotine now too as part of the pre-employment physical. This area is saturated with B.S.N. graduates because of the Medical Center downtown Houston, and all of the nursing schools in this area pumping out graduates, who can not get jobs here, unless they have experience or a B.S.N. That is just the way it is here. I have been doing TPAPN for over two years and have yet to get a job that meets TPAPN's criteria, so I have been pursuing my B.S.N., because I realized real quick while interviewing over the last two years that I would need one. I have learned a whole lot in this curriculum, but mostly how to research and how to use Word really well. It is a lot of busy work, but it takes dedication, discipline, and hard work to achieve. There were many things I did not know how to do on the computer before. But I have become the Microsoft Word/computer guru. That is all a Bachelor's degree means to me. It better prepares you for management, and professional leadership positions. It creates leaders. I recently found out that after going for a little over a year in the B.S.N. program that I have to have a job in order to be able to take the last two nursing classes before the final Capstone course. So, I am stuck in more ways than one.

Maybe you should talk to the people @ UT-Arlington's online RN-BSN program. They don't require you to be employed, and there is no clinical component. I'm hoping to start in Aug. or Sept. I liked my other program, but I can't do clinical due to health issues.

[SE_BSN_RN, BSN]

Explain to me how more education (4 years vs 2) does NOT make you a better nurse?? How, exactly is an ADN better prepared than a BSN? That is nonsense. And guess who else thinks so?? Magnet and most other hospitals, pharma and research companies, universities, etc. If you are fine with an ADN that's great, but don't try to belittle those whose took the incentive for a more well-rounded education. Or in my case, a MSN.

Yes, thank you! An ADN is NOT better prepared than a BSN. It's all about EBP, which is.....BSN's provide safer care, and client outcomes are better. These are not my words, its evidence. BSN is not JUST management classes, its a lot more.

[SE_BSN_RN, BSN]

I worked for ten years on a clinical floor for two ADN programs and one BSN program. The ADN students were more involved with their assignments and well prepared. The BSN students refused to give baths, would be down the hall in their break room when their patients needed something and often didn't really know what was going on with their patients. The ADN students helped with all the patients on the floor and asked a lot of questions. I think the true difference is the attitude that some (not all) BSN students have that they are superior and don't need to dirty their hands. As for BSNs with internships-I worked with a nurse who had first been a BSN student, then an intern, on our floor. As a new hire on our floor, she didn't feel it was her job to answer call lights-the two aides (for 30 patients) were supposed to do that while SHE read a novel. She was not a knowledgeable nurse, but was able to move into the administrative ranks where she can (and does) now really make life miserable for nurses who actually take care of their patients. And she is only one of several. Experience with BSN nurses has made me question the value of the BSN in its present form. And now I see the push for the MSN nurse. I can't believe the average MSN-prepared nurse will want to do hands-on work on a med-surg floor. So who will be taking care of the complex, chronically ill patient who also is hospitalized with an acute need but is not in ICU? Will there be anyone besides an aide on the floor to actually physically care for the patients?

Evidence based practice. Seems a lot of ADN's don't have this knowledge. I know a lot of BSN's AND MSN's that do bedside care.

As for the BSN students....did it ever occur to you that maybe their program instructs them to shadow the nurse, and not do the CNA's work? In my BSN program, we were specifically told NOT to do the CNA's work for them. Being in our last rotation of advanced med surg, we were to care for our 2 patients and shadow the RN taking care of them. We all know how to do VS and baths.....we (students) shouldn't do the CNA's work...especially when the CNA's and the other staff nurses expect the students to do all the VS, beds, baths, etc for the whole unit. My advanced MS rotation was awful because the CNA's and floor nurses were mad that we didn't let the CNA's sit around and chit chat. Whether a CNA or nurse, and you have students, that patient is still YOUR priority and it is still your responsibility to make sure things get done. You know that stack of paperwork the students have.....med cards, care plans? Those 5-6 pages (or more!) that is due when they leave clinicals? The paperwork they can't do ahead of time because they aren't allowed to? Yeah. That's all due in post conference. Some of those BSN's might have been LPN's for a long time. Transitioning from an LPN to RN isn't easy. I came away from that rotation still confused about my role as the RN, instead of JUST the LPN.

And let me tell you, my last med surg rotation? I learned almost nothing, because of the hostility and "Why can't the students do it?" attitude of the hospital staff. Needless to say, the clinical site is a potential job opportunity. Good way to tell people that the hospital would be a great place to work!

[PMFB-RN, RN]

Yes, thank you! An ADN is NOT better prepared than a BSN. It's all about EBP, which is.....BSN's provide safer care, and client outcomes are better. These are not my words, its evidence. BSN is not JUST management classes, its a lot more.

*** Weather o not a ADN is better prepared than a BSN is far more dependent on the individual programs. Some schools, regardless of the degree they grant, simply don't do a very good job.

When you get a chance to take research classes and learn how to interpret and evaluate studies you will be in a better position to judge. The "studies" don't show what you are claiming and in any case were preformed by a highly biased individual.

[BostonFNP, APRN]

*** Weather o not a ADN is better prepared than a BSN is far more dependent on the individual programs. Some schools, regardless of the degree they grant, simply don't do a very good job.

When you get a chance to take research classes and learn how to interpret and evaluate studies you will be in a better position to judge. The "studies" don't show what you are claiming and in any case were preformed by a highly biased individual.[/quote

I agree to the point about the variance between programs/schools. If they ever have BSN entry they need to make the good ADN programs BSN programs and get rid of the poor ADN and BSN programs.

But how many ADN programs have research as part of the curriculum?

The authors may have biases but the articles did pass through an extensive critical peer review process.

[MunoRN, RN]

I agree to the point about the variance between programs/schools. If they ever have BSN entry they need to make the good ADN programs BSN programs and get rid of the poor ADN and BSN programs.

But how many ADN programs have research as part of the curriculum?

The authors may have biases but the articles did pass through an extensive critical peer review process.

NLNAC requires that research be part of a ADN curriculum to be accredited and applies near identical requirements to ADN programs as the CCNE applies to BSN programs in terms of Research base.

[MunoRN, RN]

Yes, thank you! An ADN is NOT better prepared than a BSN. It's all about EBP, which is.....BSN's provide safer care, and client outcomes are better. These are not my words, its evidence. BSN is not JUST management classes, its a lot more.

Your correct, the difference isn't just a management/leadership class, it's typically also a community health class and sometimes a Nutrition class. A "lot" more might be over stating it a bit.

[anothergrumpyoldRN]

Just a side note...CNA's are assistants that provide the basic NURSING care of the patient under the direction of a nurse. It is not beneath us to be competent in providing that care to a variety of patients with a variety of needs.

[boogalina, ASN, BSN, MSN, LPN]

Just a side note...CNA's are assistants that provide the basic NURSING care of the patient under the direction of a nurse. It is not beneath us to be competent in providing that care to a variety of patients with a variety of needs.

Exactly. We're all on the same team, with caring for the patient being the goal. Well said!