ADN's being pushed out

Published

I work for a large Magnet hospital. As nursing becomes more popular, and nurses not in short supply, I have noticed something ominous has being going on lately. Several of our older and very seasoned ADN nurses are being fired. The excuses for firing are ridiculous. I have sadly seen some excellent nurses lose their jobs. I am wondering if they want to get rid of the ADNs so they can look "better" with an all BSN staff. Or perhaps they want rid of older nurses who have been there longer because they are higher on the pay scale. Either way, it is very scarey. I myself am BSN, and i am not ashamed to say that what I know does not hold a candle to these fired nurses. Any thoughts?

I am a student that was just accepted into an ADN and a BSN program. I hold a Bachelor's in Psychology. Which program will provide the best experiences and opportunities for me

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I am a student that was just accepted into an ADN and a BSN program. I hold a Bachelor's in Psychology. Which program will provide the best experiences and opportunities for me

The program that provides the best experiences is unlikely to be the same as the program that gives gives you the best opportunities.

Pick one.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
I am a student that was just accepted into an ADN and a BSN program. I hold a Bachelor's in Psychology. Which program will provide the best experiences and opportunities for me

The best unbiased advice I can give is to talk to potential employers a well as RNs in your area. You can get a feeling for what program is the most respected in the area and what employers require for new grad hiring.

We don't know you or the local programs you are referring to, so in my opinion we can not directly answer your question; saying you can't have both isn't true in my mind, as I would wager most students find quality experience and opportunity in NS. You will find a program that offers you both a great opportunity and a great experience.

Up Vote Up Vote ×

I know at my university where I earned my BSN, we had 2 diploma nurses coming back to get BSN's because the hospital pretty much said "get it or else." Anyways, those girls were smart, very. Diploma programs trained very competent nurses in my opinion. You must have talked to a butthole at that program.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Medical Surgical.

Its my understanding that a BSN is basically just a two year degree your "Minor" the basic education classes, and what you are "majoring" in, your nursing classes.

So a ADN nurse who holds a separate associate degree in Science basically has the same amount of education as a BSN.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
I take your point however a two BSN is not an accelerated program. The actual accelerated BSN programs are only 12 months long. We have a couple one year nursing schools here in Wisconsin.
I know, I know.......and my niece just finished one in Ohio and it was 2 years.....ALL PROGRAMS have different requirements.

Where I graduated from college they stopped their ADN program and made it the Accelerated BSN program....class for class credit for credit......my point being with all of the "BSN is better" talk.....when the accelerated BSN programs are the same 2 year programs. My POINT IS.......having a 2 year degree does NOT make and inferior nurse...IF the program is a academically a good one.

2 year schools aren't going to go away any time soon because if these colleges will close and THAT will further dump the economy. This argument has been going on for >30 years and will CONTINUE to go on a long as there are multiple levels of entry.....I think the focus need to be on a standard curriculum across the board that include pharmacology and make these for profit "POP UP's" tow the line.

I just do NOT believe that the "fluff" courses truly develop a superior nurse....it does however produce a nurse with larger debt and therefore more apt to put up with bad behavior by their employers.

I read that Liberal Arts article and I was unimpressed.....

I have a BSN....that is not the point. I think we need to STOP BASHING each other as one being better than the other.....all it is my truck is better than your truck, my swing set is bigger than yours or saying someone is beneath someone else for shopping at Target.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
Its my understanding that a BSN is basically just a two year degree your "Minor" the basic education classes, and what you are "majoring" in, your nursing classes.

So a ADN nurse who holds a separate associate degree in Science basically has the same amount of education as a BSN.

That is true...but in this economy the BSN is getting preferential treatment.

Up Vote Up Vote ×

So tell me how taking redundant courses (I say redundant because this material is included in any RN program) such as Theoretical Foundations, Current Issues, Professional Ethics and Leadership will mean the difference in patient outcomes. Those courses came right from the syllabuses of RN-BSN programs I've reviewed. There is not one thing there that will make any difference clinically.

You obviously are coming from the perspective of someone who is affiliated with or working for a college or university and they are probably picking up your tuition tab. Many universities in the Philadelphia area will pick up tuition tabs if you teach either in the classroom or as clinical instructor. That is probably why you can have a baby at home and pay off a new mortgage.

We all know that colleges and universities are a business and their business is to increase revenue. That came from an administrator in one of Philadelphia's healthcare systems.So please stop all the phony altruism about how having nurses run back to school is for the benefit of patients. Many hospitals in the area now have agreements with universities that offer on-site RN-BSN programs. What better way to make sure those seats are full and keep that revenue coming in than for a hospital to require its nurses to obtain a BSN. Talk about a racket!

The only winners in this BSN drive will be the schools. They are guaranteed the tuition money from the federal "guaranteed" student loan programs. The now greatly indebted nurse is not guaranteed to make any more money than they did before they got the BSN and the patients will receive no better care. And as far as BSNs being required for "Magnet Status". That's another racket meant to deceive the uninformed general public into thinking one hospital is better than another. All of the nurses I talked said Magnet Status is a scam and it many cases has made working conditions worse. Hospitals pay the ANA thousands of dollars in order to receive the large government stipends that are awarded for obtaining and maintaining Magnet Status. I have been working to get the message out through the media.

To risk losing our most experienced nurses, who many are in their 40s and 50s, by mandating they put out thousands of dollars for a BSN or risk termination is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. "Embarrassing to explain to patients why there are so many entry levels into nursing?" I have never had a patient ask me whether I had a diploma or BSN. The only thing they want to know is; are you experienced and can you help me. I'll tell you what will be embarrassing; when I tell people the truth that hospitals are forcing out their most experienced older nurses to hire new BSNs so they can pay them the bottom end of the nursing pay scale. And that is the truth!

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
In reply to Boston FNP,

So tell me how taking redundant courses (I say redundant because this material is included in any RN program) such as Theoretical Foundations, Current Issues, Professional Ethics and Leadership will mean the difference in patient outcomes. Those courses came right from the syllabuses of RN-BSN programs I've reviewed. There is not one thing there that will make any difference clinically.

You obviously are coming from the perspective of someone who is affiliated with or working for a college or university and they are probably picking up your tuition tab. Many universities in the Philadelphia area will pick up tuition tabs if you teach either in the classroom or as clinical instructor. That is probably why you can have a baby at home and pay off a new mortgage.

We all know that colleges and universities are a business and their business is to increase revenue. That came from an administrator in one of Philadelphia's healthcare systems.So please stop all the phony altruism about how having nurses run back to school is for the benefit of patients. Many hospitals in the area now have agreements with universities that offer on-site RN-BSN programs. What better way to make sure those seats are full and keep that revenue coming in than for a hospital to require its nurses to obtain a BSN. Talk about a racket!

The only winners in this BSN drive will be the schools. They are guaranteed the tuition money from the federal "guaranteed" student loan programs. The now greatly indebted nurse is not guaranteed to make any more money than they did before they got the BSN and the patients will receive no better care. And as far as BSNs being required for "Magnet Status". That's another racket meant to deceive the uninformed general public into thinking one hospital is better than another. All of the nurses I talked said Magnet Status is a scam and it many cases has made working conditions worse. Hospitals pay the ANA thousands of dollars in order to receive the large government stipends that are awarded for obtaining and maintaining Magnet Status. I have been working to get the message out through the media.

To risk losing our most experienced nurses, who many are in their 40s and 50s, by mandating they put out thousands of dollars for a BSN or risk termination is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. "Embarrassing to explain to patients why there are so many entry levels into nursing?" I have never had a patient ask me whether I had a diploma or BSN. The only thing they want to know is; are you experienced and can you help me. I'll tell you what will be embarrassing; when I tell people the truth that hospitals are forcing out their most experienced older nurses to hire new BSNs so they can pay them the bottom end of the nursing pay scale. And that is the truth that also came from a health system administrator!

I will respond to each of your paragraphs with one of my own:

The courses are not redundant. Material is covered in greater depth and is designed to further your thinking. How will it make any difference clinically? Well there is data to support it, both from direct nursing studies and from liberal arts studies. You tell me how ethics, current issues, and foundations would not make an impact.

I am coming from the perspective of a nurse who has completed a significant amount of education. I do teach with a local college because I feel like that is my duty to the nursing community. I make very very little money from it for the work that I put in; I get minimal tuition credit for completing my doctorate. I make a good salary and I live within my means. I give back through teaching, the church, and many other facets. I am not being "bought" by my academic institution and they contribute nothing to my "baby" or my "new mortgage" so don't presume the do. Further, I teach only at the graduate level so I have no disclosures for undergrad education. In the same vein, are you a little biased d/t your experience with rejection/jilting from your local higher education?

The real winners, according to the data, is patients. Educational institutions and hospital systems make money in the process, sure, and as outcomes improve they make more, but the patients receive the greatest benefit. You talk about "phony altruism" when all you can argue is that requiring a higher education inconveniences you personally. Hospitals have agreements with higher education for several reasons: 1. They always have going back to the days of strictly hospital-driven diploma/certificate education of nurses, 2. That's what medicine does, 3. That's what cheaper for the hospitals to increase the education of their nurses on the hospital's dime, 4. They have nursing programs they trust, etc. Please, provide some data that shows higher education does not improve patient outcomes. I have asked many times and have had no responses?

I understand you are a self-proclaimed expert and media advocate for the "scam" of Magnet Status and (seemingly) higher education for nurses, yet you continue to spread false and unsubstantiated information. Nursing is not at risk of losing its most experienced nurses, they are not going anywhere. It is at risk of making experienced nurses and new nurses alike better. Low risk high reward. As far as older and high-cost labor being replaced by younger cheaper labor is not a new thing: take a undergrad level business course, it's 101 level. If older and experienced nurses want to continue to advance and make top-dollar then they continue their education to match it, this is no different than any other business. From an administrator/exec perspective you invent in a younger higher educated work force with data supporting its effectiveness.

Perhaps before you discount higher education, participate in it, then make an educated decision.

Up Vote Up Vote ×

I don't understand why ADNs get so upset because they think that BSN grads belittle them but in the same breathe belittle the BSN by stating that BSN grads are ill prepared and don't have clinical experience. Aren't you doing the same thing that you don't want done to you? There are studies that prove that BSN students are better prepared, which is why most hospitals are transitioning to BSN only. But does it really matter who is better prepared? We all pass the same boards, right? Get over it!

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.

I don't think my BSN degree will make me a better nurse. I think having the intelligence, perseverance, dedication, integrity, and drive to gain the most education I can makes me a better nurse.

I do have some questions? I am a RN with an ASN degree and 18 credits into a RN-BSN program. Why are we labeling ourselves? I am not a ADN, ASN, future BSN. I am (name) a Registered Nurse.

Also why BSN's, why not BDN's? ADN is not my degree, its ASN. I have never met someone with a BDN or ADN on there diploma. Just an observation. Why can't we all just be Nurses?

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I don't understand why ADNs get so upset because they think that BSN grads belittle them but in the same breathe belittle the BSN by stating that BSN grads are ill prepared and don't have clinical experience. Aren't you doing the same thing that you don't want done to you?

*** It's not belittling that upsets then. It's the call to eliminate them that is upsetting.

There are studies that prove that BSN students are better prepared,

*** Oh really? I have never seen or heard of such studies. Got a link to these studies that "prove" that BSN students are better prepared? Please share and educate us all about theses studies.

which is why most hospitals are transitioning to BSN only.

*** LOL! Ya right. Among the reasons many hospitals prefer BSN grads is because they like their new employees to have a large student debt. They are seen as being less likely to vote with their feet when faced with unsafe staffing levels or abusive treatment by administration.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
+ Join the Discussion