ADN's being pushed out

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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I work for a large Magnet hospital. As nursing becomes more popular, and nurses not in short supply, I have noticed something ominous has being going on lately. Several of our older and very seasoned ADN nurses are being fired. The excuses for firing are ridiculous. I have sadly seen some excellent nurses lose their jobs. I am wondering if they want to get rid of the ADNs so they can look "better" with an all BSN staff. Or perhaps they want rid of older nurses who have been there longer because they are higher on the pay scale. Either way, it is very scarey. I myself am BSN, and i am not ashamed to say that what I know does not hold a candle to these fired nurses. Any thoughts?

Nursing is the only profession which does not require a Bachelors for entry level. We still call ASN and diploma nurses professionals. Requiring the BSN would bring entry level nursing up to the level of other entry level professionals.

BSNs should not be required for nurses who are already licensed and practicing or required for those nurses already in school. Schools should continue to offer diploma programs and ASN programs. I do, however, support the proposed requirement that going forward ASN or diploma nurses be required to earn a BSN within a certain amount of time after passing the boards. Some proposals say 2 years, some say 5 years, some say 10 years. 5 years would be my preference as middle ground between 2 years, which is too soon for some people and their pocketbooks and 10 years, which keeps nurses out of formal education for a long time and makes it harder to go back, especially for those nurses who didn't like school to begin with or found it hard to write papers, take tests, etc. BSN educated nurses are taught to function in a wider range of settings than diploma and ASN prepared nurses. They are also taught more critical thinking, including how to read research and implement appropriate changes in caring for patients, managing staff, etc. Diploma and ASN nursing programs do not teach to that level. In an increasingly complicated health system, with multiple treatment options and ethical issues, diploma and ASN educated nurses fall short in these areas.

For the record, I got my RN license after an ASN program then went back for the BSN. Now I have an MSN and am working on my DNP. I didn't choose to go back to school because I love school (although it's not exactly like I was being tortured by going back). I chose to go back because I think it's important that RNs be educated and have critical thinking skills and are apply to take care of patients in a variety of settings. I also believe that nursing as a profession needs to standardize entry level practice requirements in such a way as to meet or exceed expectations of other professions.

I obtained my RN through an ADN program, and then bridged to a BSN program at a state university. The ADN program provided the foundation of my nurse training and is where I learned to think critically as a nurse providing direct patient care. The BSN program I bridged in to provided learning experiences, some of which I found very valuable, but while the BSN program supplemented my ADN training, the courses in public health nursing, advanced health assessment, nursing research, leadership, nursing theory, community health practicum, and preceptorship in a new specialty, along with college statistics, and a few extra humanities courses, did not provide me with such enhanced critical thinking abilities or other nursing abilities as to render my ADN training inferior to my BSN training, or to evidence my ADN training as insufficient to meet the needs of patients I would be providing patient care to.

As an added note, in the final semesters of my BSN program, I heard students who had gone through the whole BSN program say that they had received hardly any clinical training.

The ability to think critically and to deliver intelligent, good quality nursing care, does not begin with a BSN. Why would it? There is such a quality as innate human intelligence, and the ability to learn. Life experience is also an important factor. My experience is that the majority of the BSN courses I took were valuable, and contributed to my becoming a better nurse than if I had not taken them, but had I not taken the BSN courses my ADN training had prepared me quite sufficiently to think critically as a nurse and to provide good quality nursing care.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

Oh dear. I am curious as to why you presume to be such an authority on the critical thinking abilities and nursing abilities of ASN/ADN and diploma nurses. You sound as though you have allowed yourself to be influenced by a certain school of thought.

As someone who has been through every level of nursing you would think she/he were well-qualified to speak on the topic.

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As someone who has been through every level of nursing you would think she/he were well-qualified to speak on the topic.

One's own experience and beliefs does not qualify one to generalize about other nurses qualifications and practices.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

One's own experience and beliefs does not qualify one to generalize about other nurses qualifications and practices.

Oh good, so we can fall back on the data. Weren't you going to post some studies to support you position, I never saw them....

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Oh good, so we can fall back on the data. Weren't you going to post some studies to support you position, I never saw them....

I have never said I intended to post any study. Your post is malicious.

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Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.

This is one of those polarizing subject and one that is debated, discussed and argued AT LENGTH.....over and over again. We as nurses are bickering amongst ourselves and we need to stop. I have heard this debate since 1976 and it will continue until nursing decides that that there will be a one entry level of education.

Until that time.....diploma, ADN, BSN or MSN direct entry allows one to take the boards....I mean NCLEX and license them as an RN. If that nurse is able to pass the NCLEX then they are a nurse just like the next nurse.

While certain levels of education may allow different practice standards....one education isn't necessarily "better" then the next.

I think we all need to be kinder with each other and stop the my boat is bigger/better than your boat when we all know that both boats float.

allnurses promotes a good debate....it needs to be polite.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

So if there is no debate then where does progress come from?

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

I have never said I intended to post any study. Your post is malicious.

There was no malicious intent in my post.

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Specializes in Critical Care.

To BostonFNP some of your comments do sound like criticism toward those of us who choose not to go on and get more education. Learning is great, but it doesn't have to happen just in college. Nurses don't have to become BSN to be good nurses as you seem to believe. Honestly I think nurses can learn on their own by keeping up with the latest research and knowledge in nursing journals, medical journals, and becoming certified in their field. I don't think there is any magic in a BSN that makes a nurse suddenly better, as though those who are ADN"s are inferior and selfish for choosing not to go back to school.

The comment why would a hospital pay to put a person thru medical school is ridiculous and doesn't pertain to a nurse already working in her field, already qualified with a license to be told to go back to school and take out massive student loans just because the hospital wants a BSN for magnet status! When the hospital requires nurses to have certain things like ACLS or certifications they pay for it! Obviously a BSN costs a lot more than ACLS. If a hospital wants BSN's they can obviously hire them from the get go and encourage their nurses to go back to school. Although in my experience hospitals want nurses with maximum flexibility and availability to work, not nurses needing time off for school.

There is more to life than school, and people don't have unlimited money to go to school and ignore the rest of their personal/family responsibilites. Many of the new BSN nurses where I work are jumping back into school to get their NP to get away from the hospital and have a better job. I don't blame them, but I don't envy their $100,000+ student loans they are taking out just assuming everything will work out and they will automatically get that great job. I don't believe there are enough jobs out there for everyone going to NP school.

I know how difficult it has been for me to pay back my student loans and they were only around $25,000 and years later I'm still paying them off. There are many older nurses out there where it would be financially insane to go back to school and take out student debt when they should be saving for retirement and unexpected health costs and they won't have the time to pay the loans off before retirement. You are telling them they should drop everything and go back to school just to have a BSN because without it they are inferior and not good enough. Even going back to school won't guarantee they won't lose their job either by being fired or laid off or due to an accident or illness that leaves them unable to work. Yet the student loans have to be paid, there are no consumer protections or bankruptcy options with student loans. Many nurses are single mothers struggling to pay the bills and the last thing they can afford to do is go back to school, consider yourself lucky that you have the opportunity!

I especially think it is foolhardy to go back to school and take out student loans when you are unemployed or disabled because there is no guarantee you will get another job and be able to pay the loans off. I've read posts of people who went back to school in the hopes of getting a new and better job and I fear for their future. If they don't succeed they will not be able to walk away from the student loans and will see any wages garnished, tax returns taken, professional license withheld even social security and disability garnished. People need to be aware of the dangers of student loans and make a truly informed choice not blindly go back to school. If consumer protections and bankruptcy options were restored to student loans then going back to school would be easier and not so dangerous as it is now, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

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Specializes in CVICU.

Either hospitals will force you to get your bsn or they will phase you out like the now obsolete lpn. I would even dare to say that eventually there will be a new title to distinguish adn's vs bsn's. Doesn't matter to me though, by that time I'll be done with grad school by then anyways. It's all about progress and gaining respect for our profession.

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Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.

Hospitals are largely why there is no legislation on the books in any state in the country to make everyone's opinion into a legal reality despite close to 50 years of trying.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

Just a quick response to clarify my postion.

To BostonFNP some of your comments do sound like criticism toward those of us who choose not to go on and get more education.

I don't intend them as criticism. I can see how it might come across that way, but it really is not my intent in discussing the matter. I have a great respect for all nurses, regardless of degree. I think some of my comments bordered on criticism because they were voiced in response to putting the nurses priorities above the patients: those that would go back to school provided it was no sacrifice to them, acknowledging that they would be better nurses for it, but unwilling to invest in it.

Learning is great, but it doesn't have to happen just in college. Nurses don't have to become BSN to be good nurses as you seem to believe. Honestly I think nurses can learn on their own by keeping up with the latest research and knowledge in nursing journals, medical journals, and becoming certified in their field.

I agree that learning can (and should) happen both formally and informally. I want to be very clear here: one does not need a BSN to become a good nurse. I would argue that advancing education makes that individual a better nurse. I know more than a handful of nurses at every educational level that I would trust my life to in a heartbeat. They are all fantastic nurses and I do believe all would be even better nurses through increasing their education. They don't "have to" to be good nurses, they already are.

I don't think there is any magic in a BSN that makes a nurse suddenly better, as though those who are ADN"s are inferior and selfish for choosing not to go back to school.

I agree that having a BSN does not magically make you suddenly better. I do think it makes you better over time. I do not think that ADNs choosing not to go back to school are inferior in any way. If an ADN recognizes that he/she would be a better nurse by getting a BSN and chooses not to do so because it is inconvenient, then yes, there is some selfishness there (in my opinion).

The comment why would a hospital pay to put a person thru medical school is ridiculous..

It was intended to be :)

There is more to life than school, and people don't have unlimited money to go to school and ignore the rest of their personal/family responsibilites.

I couldn't agree more: there is far more to life than school and work. I would add that personal and families responsibilities are important, however, there are professional responsibilities and responsibilities to patients that carry weight in the balance.

You are telling them they should drop everything and go back to school just to have a BSN because without it they are inferior and not good enough.

Ok, first off, I am not telling anyone to do anything. Secondly, I have never said that anyone is inferior or not good enough nor do I feel that way about anyone. The only person that can make you feel inferior is yourself; I have great respect for all nurses, regardless of education level, we are all nurses. There are ADNs that know things far better than I do and I have often in my APRN role asked for advice and guidance from them; they are colleagues I value greatly.

To be honest, my personal stance is that experienced nurses should NOT be "forced" to return to school. I confess I wish more wanted to, but that's just a side note. I do think that nursing should strongly consider a BSN-entry to practice for the future, not for the past.

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