ADN's being pushed out

avengingspirit1 · May 24, 2013

Brandy,

I'm glad to hear from nurses like you who are wise enough to see right through all this higher degree garbage. As I've said time and time again; the majority of those driving and in favor of higher degree pushes are those who are in some way affiliated with the higher education system. One of their main pieces of ammunition is; look what it did for PT, OT and Pharmacology. The only thing it did was keep students in school longer and increase their loan debt. Another reason it was done was to try to make these professions sound more doctor-like in the hopes of being able to vie for a higher pay scale. The majority of PTs and OTs out there have gone through entry-level master's programs. The only reason to go for the doctorate is to possibly teach at a four year university. A young woman who recently graduated from Pharmacology said that when the extra year was tacked on, the courses she had to take had nothing to do with Pharmacology. They were art courses. Her parents were furious that she had to take out another $40,000 in loans for that. I've argued before that in looking over the curriculum for many RN-BSN programs, I saw courses such as Theoretical Nursing Foundations, Current Issues and Research. These are all areas that are incorporated into any A.S. or ADN program. There is nothing new learned that in any way will help patients on the floor. And if nurses are keeping up with their CEUs as required by law, they are on top of the current issues. Maybe some nurses can afford to go back for an almighty BSN. Maybe some nurses have other obligations such as family. And maybe some nurses would just like to work and enjoy their free-time when not working. Whatever reason, it is and should always remain their choice and not the choice of a group of venal, self-serving academic elitists. They just can't stand the fact that A.S. and ADN nurses are well educated to meet current as well as the future demands of the nursing profession. What does it bother them so much? It doesn't bother me that they haven't touched a real patient in a dog's age and can still renew their licenses and call themselves nurses by taking 30 CEUs on the computer every two years.

allnurses Guide · May 24, 2013

Brandy,
I'm glad to hear from nurses like you who are wise enough to see right through all this higher degree garbage. As I've said time and time again; the majority of those driving and in favor of higher degree pushes are those who are in some way affiliated with the higher education system. One of their main pieces of ammunition is; look what it did for PT, OT and Pharmacology. The only thing it did was keep students in school longer and increase their loan debt. Another reason it was done was to try to make these professions sound more doctor-like in the hopes of being able to vie for a higher pay scale. The majority of PTs and OTs out there have gone through entry-level master's programs. The only reason to go for the doctorate is to possibly teach at a four year university. A young woman who recently graduated from Pharmacology said that when the extra year was tacked on, the courses she had to take had nothing to do with Pharmacology. They were art courses. Her parents were furious that she had to take out another $40,000 in loans for that. I've argued before that in looking over the curriculum for many RN-BSN programs, I saw courses such as Theoretical Nursing Foundations, Current Issues and Research. These are all areas that are incorporated into any A.S. or ADN program. There is nothing new learned that in any way will help patients on the floor. And if nurses are keeping up with their CEUs as required by law, they are on top of the current issues. Maybe some nurses can afford to go back for an almighty BSN. Maybe some nurses have other obligations such as family. And maybe some nurses would just like to work and enjoy their free-time when not working. Whatever reason, it is and should always remain their choice and not the choice of a group of venal, self-serving academic elitists. They just can't stand the fact that A.S. and ADN nurses are well educated to meet current as well as the future demands of the nursing profession. What does it bother them so much? It doesn't bother me that they haven't touched a real patient in a dog's age and can still renew their licenses and call themselves nurses by taking 30 CEUs on the computer every two years.

Do you have any evidence for any of these statements, or is it all just personal opinion?

carolinapooh, BSN, RN · May 24, 2013

My question is this: how in the H-E-double hockey sticks do you insert an IV backwards?? Sorry, just had to interrupt.

And I'll say - in BOLD, no less - that slagging us BSNs and calling our degrees 'all-mighty BSNs' makes a person no better than the ones who slag on AD/ASNs.

All that does is make you sound, well, jealous and that you hold a sub-standard view of your own education (and you shouldn't), which I don't think you are, but you're coming across that way. It's equally petty.

I have plenty of opinions on this that I keep to myself - but now that I know there are ASSOCIATE DEGREE PROGRAMS FOR PAs, who are meant by definition to be extensions of doctors (would you want someone with an associate's education medically diagnosing YOUR problems? I surely wouldn't!), I'm giving up hope for our multi-degree problem.

All this infighting just makes us look like biddies with nothing else to do - a bunch of women arguing over what's black and what's white - and it seriously makes us look very, very unprofessional when it turns into mudslinging or screams of 'my education's better than your education'.

There is one indisputable fact: a bachelors degree is higher on the education scale than an associates. There's no changing that fact. It's true, whether we like it or not. The AD is seen as a technical degree - regardless of what sort of education you got. That's the perception. You can wax eloquent on whether that makes it less than or equal to the education a BSN RN gets all day, but it doesn't change that simple fact. It's why I didn't get an ADN and why I got an ABSN.

I don't care about the details right this second - but the problem stems from the public's (and yes, the academic's) perception of a two year degree (I don't care how long it took you - if you want to get technical, it took me about seven and a half years to get my BSN, because I have a prior BS, I took about two years of nursing specific prereqs, and then 16 grueling months of a BSN program - an associates is viewed as a two year degree).

As I've oft been told in my life, perception, unfortunately, is one hundred percent of the perceiver's reality.

Also, and I'm just guessing - because at the end of the day, if I'm the patient I really don't care what bloody degree or diploma my RN has as long as she's licensed and knows what the hell she's doing - there's more in the BSN classes than can be gleaned from a course description. I have an AS degree from a community college and I'm proud of it - but I wouldn't say my AS is equivalent to a general BS in Liberal Arts from a four-year institution because I know it's not, even if all they did was take a few higher-level history classes and a couple of psych courses more than me (which that is what that is - I know, I have a BSL!).

They're not equivalent outside of nursing. They can't possibly be equivalent inside either, or they wouldn't exist. Look at diploma programs. They're dying for a reason (not all of them the right reasons!) and I do know that a lot of them have turned to offering some sort of associates degree in conjunction with the RN diploma, even if it's not in nursing. There's a reason for that - they had to survive and keep up with the times.

To further the argument - and to further immerse myself in hot water - I took research classes to get my BSN. In fact, in my program, it was a GRAD level analytical stats course and a GRAD level research and development course: I designed a mock study, wrote a proposal, did a metasearch, and presented findings and evidence for my own study, just like the grad students did. We took the same class. I was taught in both classes how to interpret research. I don't think there's much of that in ADN courses (and I'm not slagging them for it - it's a different degree). The HUGE thing now is EBP and its application. If you can't interpret and analyze research, then apply it within your place and scope of practice, you can't carry out effective EBP. THAT'S why we take all these research courses. They're not fluff. They serve a purpose. They're part of our job, especially as BSN prepared RNs. I actually do this all the time at work - I'm expected to, and not just because I'm an officer. This isn't fluff work - it's a skill, it's expected, and it's vital to us at all levels if we're going to continue to advance the profession. There's little time to hone these skills in two years, much less even get exposure to them. It's the way it works.

I wouidn't try to justify the existence of an associate RN degree by saying maybe some nurses like their free time, and I wouldn't call out managers who no longer work at the bedside, because some of them are also ADN folks who have put in their time and no longer do direct patient care, and renew their licenses in exactly the way you speak of as a result.

And PharmD's - the entry level degree for pharmacists, not pharmacologists - take a lot more than arts classes. I cannot imagine why you were told that. Pull a course of study for, say, UNC or the Massachusetts College of Pharmacy (one of the top schools in the nation) and look at the classes required for completion. They're not basketweaving. They're advanced pharmcokinetics and biopharmaceutics courses. (I toyed with pharmacy school for a while, even took a year of o-chem and the PCAT and blew it out of the water, and then decided I wanted more people time than what they get. Even though MCP recruited me like no one's business and offered me money to go there.)

There's a professional way to pursue this debate without mudslinging.

I think a signified difference between ADNs and BSNs should exist, and I'm not saying that just because I'm a BSN. I thought that when I was first looking at schools and I was shocked when there wasn't. I think ADNs have a place and I think BSNs have a place.

For the record, my 'backup' school was a local diploma program, not the local ADN programs, with a plan to go RN-MSN after about two years. I felt the diploma program was harder than the ADN program from things I'd been told and I wanted the challenge. Plus, I already had a BS with classes in Calculus and Statistics, had taken a year of O-chem and a year of Gen Chem, and the ADN program was trying to force me to take college algebra and some other ridiculous basic chemistry course (ridiculous for someone with two years in the subject) with a 4.0 combined GPA. For what? To get my money? It sounded that way to me, and, uh, I think not. The diploma program and their affiliated school for the associates in applied science took all of my credits except one (I can't remember what it was - it certainly wasn't a math or science class!) and they told me with my academic record to CLEP it. That's reasonable to me.

libran1984, ASN, RN · May 24, 2013

My question is this: how in the H-E-double hockey sticks do you insert an IV backwards?? Sorry, just had to interrupt.
And I'll say - in BOLD, no less - that slagging us BSNs and calling our degrees 'all-mighty BSNs' makes a person no better than the ones who slag on AD/ASNs.
All that does is make you sound, well, jealous and that you hold a sub-standard view of your own education (and you shouldn't), which I don't think you are, but you're coming across that way. It's equally petty.
I have plenty of opinions on this that I keep to myself - but now that I know there are ASSOCIATE DEGREE PROGRAMS FOR PAs, who are meant by definition to be extensions of doctors (would you want someone with an associate's education medically diagnosing YOUR problems? I surely wouldn't!), I'm giving up hope for our multi-degree problem.

I'm not entirely sure what made her insert the IV backwards. It was very unusual and we had to take it out.

Regarding the Assc PA programs, I do believe they require a previous bachelor's degree in another science related field. So it's almost like a Master's degree- 6 years of actual schooling. I would, personally, be quite comfortable with an Assc degree PA acting as my provider knowing this information.

carolinapooh, BSN, RN · May 25, 2013

I hope you're right, but a couple I looked up didn't seem to require that.

And I wouldn't be comfortable. That's just me. An AD is not an MS, regardless of the courses. I'm sorry - that's just what I think. So any PA's out there, don't tell me. :)

There don't seem to be many of those programs, so my guess is there's a reason for it. I'd never heard of such a thing until I was properly educated and grilled a bit of crow in the process. Fair enough.

I still am baffled about the backwards IV. How in the world do you get the bevel faced round the wrong way without the patient coming unhinged? :) I'm assuming you mean the bevel faced the wrong way. OMG.

libran1984, ASN, RN · May 25, 2013

I still am baffled about the backwards IV. How in the world do you get the bevel faced round the wrong way without the patient coming unhinged? :) I'm assuming you mean the bevel faced the wrong way. OMG.

She inserted the Angio with the bevel facing distally instead of proximally. We took it out immediately prior to the infusion and got another line in. It was a cringe worthy moment, but I've seen worse.

carolinapooh, BSN, RN · May 25, 2013

OMG OMG OMG....forgive the text speak but OMG!! How in the world does someone get the impression that's okay?? I couldn't even picture that....wow, just wow.

kalevra, BSN, RN · May 25, 2013

Can't believe this thread is still going.

Until it is official policy not to hire ADN RNs, everything else is just a recommendation.

You want real change. Then put it in Law as to why ADNs are not to be hired anymore such as a change in scope of practice. If its not legislated in, you wont have any real change.

Hiring managers opinion changes all the time. I have seen some hire an ADN because of family ties, while harping about how the hospital only hires BSNs.

However, once written into law the facility must abide by it or face some severe consequences from the state.

carolinapooh, BSN, RN · May 25, 2013

For the moment it's a cyclical debate that can never be solved nor put to rest so all parties are appeased.

Personally, it doesn't bother me - I believe there should be a distinction, because there is everywhere else in the world - but as long as the true powers-that-be don't have the gumption to make a final decision and stick with it, the debate - and the argueing - will most likely continue.

besaangel, ASN, BSN, MSN, CNA, RN, APRN, NP · May 25, 2013

I hope you're right, but a couple I looked up didn't seem to require that.
And I wouldn't be comfortable. That's just me. An AD is not an MS, regardless of the courses. I'm sorry - that's just what I think. So any PA's out there, don't tell me. :)
There don't seem to be many of those programs, so my guess is there's a reason for it. I'd never heard of such a thing until I was properly educated and grilled a bit of crow in the process. Fair enough.

There are other factors to consider. For example, the amount of pre-reqs that are usually required can range upwards of 50+ credits (not included the basic classes one had to take before jumping into Patho, Pharm or Organic Chem) so already you at looking at the graduation requirements for an AS in Biology.

Another thing to note is the mandatory clinical requirement (often non-volunteer) which is around 2000 hrs to be considered... working FT, thats a little under a year of relevant experience directly dealing with patients. Therefore, most applicants already possess a healthcare degree to meet pre-reqs and clinical experience.

Lets not talk about the competition to get into an AD PA program because an ICU RN will definitely get in over a PT aide, even though they both possess clinical experience, preference is always given to LPNs and RNs because of their "direct" patient care involvement. Also, because most PA programs are Masters degrees, the AD programs are ridiculously harder to get into (picture that as more applicants vie for PA programs as compared to Med school so its argueably more stringent to get in much less a cheaper AD option :banghead: )

Academic Prerequisites

So you can relax, most applicants are over qualified for the AD PA program and most likely are already entry-level medical professionals i.e. Radiologic and Medical Technologist

Now as far as the ADNs being pushed out, most hospitals do provide tuition reimbursement so "if" they are requiring this move-up and its doable (minus the cost) it ought to be considered

carolinapooh, BSN, RN · May 25, 2013

I hear what you're saying - and I understand it - but it's impressions. There's a huge difference in getting into an AD program and getting into an MS program. And I'm okay as long as I don't know. That's just me.

Being able to take an x-ray (a valuable job, PLEASE do not misunderstand me - I don't know how to do it) does not equip you with the background to diagnose my medical problems. I'm sorry.x

Look at it this way - I have some serious ammo the next time I hear some doc moaning on and on about how NPs aren't as prepared as PAs. And I plan on using it.

rndavu729, ADN · May 25, 2013

I have my ADN and the program I graduated from did actual clinical rotations with a few simulation labs added in. It just depends on the school you graduate from and the way the programs are set up. It's not an across the board ADN does simulation and BSN does clinicals in clinical setting. BSN graduates have more education. Does it make them superior, not necessarily. Our experiences in our careers as well as in life can make us better nurses. But why not continue an education if possible. It's always enriching and enhancing.