Accused of abandonement

DutchgirlRN, ASN, RN · Dec 17, 2007

I'd rather not go into great detail but suffice to say, the tech was written up for abandonment.

When you said they could account for their whereabouts I was thinking gees...surely they didn't get away with doing that... knowing they did get written up for abondoment explains it.

nursemike, ASN, RN · Dec 17, 2007

Being able to take criticism is indeed a fine skill to develop, but I think we should keep in mind that this is a new grad who came here to vent, not to have a lecture delivered about how irresponsible she was and to have her veracity questioned (as in the post that stated "I don't believe you"). I'm sorry, but IMHO, that's not a polite way to disagree with someone; it is a sanctimonious way to lecture them and it is not at all civil.

I read it as a new nurse looking for advice: "Where should I take this?" The nurse is entirely free to evaluate the advice and take or dismiss as she/he sees fit. If I might paraphrase, one piece of advice was "Take it to yourself." and while blunt, it wasn't uncivil.

I don't want to get too involved in arguing this, because it could pretty easily devolve into bashing posters, rather than debating ideas. But I do think there's an important distinction to consider. Going out of ones way to pounce on every error and exaggerate their significance does, indeed, seem like a bullying tactic. We can't know with any certainty, but it sounds entirely plausible that the preceptor might have been eating her young, to some extent, or at least perhaps not precepting very effectively. But a reminder--even a stern one--of the standards we nurses are expected to maintain, seems to me a service to the profession. As important as support and encouragement are, we need to recognize how important the commitment we undertake is. I just don't see that as rude, or even unkind. I might have chosen a "nicer" way of saying it, but, to me, the bottom line is that, if you heed the advice, you'll be a better nurse, and that's a gift that lasts a long time.

nursemike, ASN, RN · Dec 17, 2007

I'd rather not go into great detail but suffice to say, the tech was written up for abandonment.
So you don't need a license to get into trouble for that at my workplace.

I was told in nursing school that unlicensed workers can't be charged with abandonment, since they can't be assigned patients. In our state, at least, aides are (theoretically) assigned to nurses, rather than patients. Of course, that's a bit of hair-splitting. They certainly can be fired or disciplined under the rules of the facility.

GrumpyRN63, ADN, RN · Dec 17, 2007

During my shift, which I had not actually clocked in but had received report because I had done smething hospital ssociated prior to that day that I needed to fill out a form for, I went to go speak to a manager about an issue I was having with my preceptor. Although I did not leace the unit, because this manager's office is on the unit I was told that I had abandoned my patient assignment. This does not make sense to me because although I know I should have informed my preceptor, I was not included on the census as I am on orientation, and I did not actually leave the unit. Ultimately my preceptor is the one responsible so would it make sense for me to receive a write up for pt. abandonment? Who should I take this to?

I think it's important and would be helpful to know how long you were in the office, ten minutes is quite different than an hour... either way yes, you should have let him/her know, maybe you opted not to since it involved (the meeting) the preceptor directly.. also, the wording suggests it may not have been your manager but another... if they were looking for you did they not page you?

I don't know if this qualifies as pt abandonment..I think more info is needed. I certaintly don't inform anyone of my bathroom breaks but if leaving the unit even for a couple of minutes, YES

Daytonite, BSN, RN · Dec 17, 2007

Being able to take criticism is indeed a fine skill to develop, but I think we should keep in mind that this is a new grad who came here to vent, not to have a lecture delivered about how irresponsible she was and to have her veracity questioned (as in the post that stated "I don't believe you"). I'm sorry, but IMHO, that's not a polite way to disagree with someone; it is a sanctimonious way to lecture them and it is not at all civil.

However, this is a public forum. When someone writes something it is open to discussion. I understand the venting. I agree that being written up for abandonment was too harsh. But I was greatly bothered by the attitude behind it all. Come on. . .the OP said, "ultimately my preceptor is the one responsible." That's a big problem. Who among you reading this didn't know by the time you finished nursing school that you were responsible for your actions? You don't blame the first available person. Didn't anyone else pick up on that in the post?

I'm just saying that I was thinking this could, or might be, a pattern behavior (not accepting blame and placing it on others). It often is. My feeling was that someone else at the work place might have used the incident (abondonment) as a convenient vehicle to lay into the employee when the real problem was actually other behavioral issues. It is only my opionion as part of a discussion. I was a manager for a while and I have to tell you that I saw this kind of behavior (blaming others) lots of times. It is also very hard to address and change employee thinking. A convenient way to shake someone up, get their attention and hope to effect any kind of change is to catch them in some mistake and discipline them. They either become very remorseful and amenable to change, or even madder. The ones who refuse to change end up having rocky employment histories of getting disciplined and, in the extreme, fired.

LydiaNN · Dec 17, 2007

I did pick that up and I'm sure lots of others did, too. IMHO, the point of the post was that she was written up for patient abandonment, not just that she was written up. As a rule, I don't participate in threads where people talk about getting written up, because it is hard to contribute anything meaningful without the whole picture. Sometimes I express "sorry this happened" or something, but as a supervisor myself, I usually just stay out of it all together.

However....

I do find the notion of inflating charges in write ups in the name of getting someone to "shape up or ship out" an ineffective management tool. Especially when the charge in question carries with it legal and career implications. Where I work, inflating a charge in a write up wouldn't result in the employee being disciplined; it would result in me being called on the carpet. If the only way I can make an impression on the people I supervise is by using or exploiting their mistakes, there is something seriously lacking in my management skills.

Pediatric Critical Care Columnist · Dec 17, 2007

If the only way I can make an impression on the people I supervise is by using exploiting their mistakes, there is something seriously lacking in my management skills.

Mercy, would you come and manage my unit? Seriously, I don't think I can listen to one more person whose been verbally abused over forgetting a filter or not having time to change their IV tubing, or for going to the bathroom at the end of their break...

I'm finding this discussion quite interesting. About a year and a half ago, one of our "golden haired children" literally and publicly abandoned her patient in our ICU. She was angry about having her report in rounds interrupted when someone came to the intensivist with an issue that had to be dealt with immediately. She very loudly stated that she refused to be ignored when she was speaking and that she was not putting up with that sort of treatment any more, walked away from the bedside, got her jacket and purse and left. Not only were there no repercussions for her, but nursing management offered her a promotion a few months later. She turned it down, but the whole scenario reeks. Then our management wonders why our senior staff is leaving in droves...

KyPinkRN · Dec 17, 2007

We don't know the whole story here. I've been in management and supervision. I think there may be things the OP hasn't revealed. Also, a write up for abondonment is a big attention getter and I suspect from my background in management that this was done not only because of the primary infraction and an opportunity because a rule was broken, but possibly because of some other issues that may be going on as well. The fact that the OP pointed out in the initial post that her preceptor was responsible indicates a serious lack of responsibility in regard to her job duties. We learn from Day 1 of nursing school that we are all responsible for our actions. That, I felt, was a big error in thinking that may be part of the real problem that this manager has to deal with. I'm wondering if there were other incidents where the OP blamed her preceptor or others for things that happened. Just my thoughts on this. If I had a new employee that had that kind of thinking (blaming everyone else for their errors) and it was getting to be a regular habit, I'd be looking for any ways I could to get this person off my unit as this is trouble waiting to happen down the road. Mind you, I'm not saying this is what is going on, just my thoughts on it as I was reading the original and second post. Most of us know that as new grads, and even as new employees, when you make a mistake, the respectful thing to do is to own up to it, correct yourself and don't do it again. You don't profess to know all the facility rules better than your boss. You don't start talking about who to blame instead of yourself and how to file a grievance. I'm wondering if the OP expressed any of these thoughts to fellow employees which would be one more mistake to add to this mess which the boss wouldn't like at all. Again, just my thinking. These are the surest ways to cause negative unwanted attention to yourself. It's very hard to write someone up for their bad attitude. But, breaking a rule gives the boss legitimacy to throw the book at you when they could just give you an informal slap on the hands and a "tsk tsk" and it could be all because of an employee's general unacceptable attitude.

Are you suggesting that you would target someone for what you perceive as a bad attitude? That management tactic is exactly what makes people what to leave a job... If you don't like someone's attitude speak to them about it, you may not have a reason to write them up but maybe you can get some insight into why they are behaving in that way or they will correct their behaviors that you don't like. I have a lot of respect for you Daytonite as you are always willing to share your knowledge, but I disagree with your attitude about how this situation should be handled. Singling someone out because you don't like their attitude isn't right.

:idea:

Simplepleasures · Dec 17, 2007

I do find the notion of inflating charges in write ups in the name of getting someone to "shape up or ship out" an ineffective management tool. Especially when the charge in question carries with it legal and career implications. Where I work, inflating a charge in a write up wouldn't result in the employee being disciplined; it would result in me being called on the carpet. If the only way I can make an impression on the people I supervise is by using exploiting their mistakes, there is something seriously lacking in my management skills.

This gives me some hope that there is a shift in the over-reactive punitive,inflating of charges mentality in the healthcare management community. This notion of "pattern "of bad behavior also disturbs me, especially when there is no actual "pattern". I think this is also used to "get" someone.Why not work with the employee, try to nurture a problematic employee into a productive one, I have seen nurses transform themselves and become some of the BEST nurses on the unit. I am not saying there are not instances in which termination isnt warrented, but in my 30 years in healthcare, I have seen too many really good nurses railroaded out by management with an agenda.

Daytonite, BSN, RN · Dec 18, 2007

are you suggesting that you would target someone for what you perceive as a bad attitude? that management tactic is exactly what makes people what to leave a job... if you don't like someone's attitude speak to them about it, you may not have a reason to write them up but maybe you can get some insight into why they are behaving in that way or they will correct their behaviors that you don't like. i have a lot of respect for you daytonite as you are always willing to share your knowledge, but i disagree with your attitude about how this situation should be handled. singling someone out because you don't like their attitude isn't right.

yes, absolutely. speaking to someone about their attitude doesn't always work, believe me. how do you think work situations where there are nasty staff nurses that no one seems able to control come to be in the first place? you can speak to some of these people (i know, i did), but some of them just don't respond, don't want to respond really, and continue to act in their nasty little ways. i'm not kidding. they will look a manager in the face, get defiant, and tell them "you can't do anything to me because i don't like someone!" if you've never been a manager then you've never experienced this kind of stubborness and insubordination, and it is a real shock. when you are a good worker and employee it is very hard to believe that there are people who you might be working shoulder to shoulder with who have totally opposite beliefs and attitudes about work. it was a reality shock that hit me hard when i first got into supervision and management and i had a hard time believing that any rn could act like that, but some do. not everyone is committed to being a team player. you have to think of them as weeds in a garden. you just have to dig them out with any tool that will do the job. if it comes down to them having made some mistake, then you hit them with disciplinary action and hit them hard. you watch and wait for them to make mistakes and hit them with disciplinary action again. you make their work situation as uncomfortable as possible by applying as much pressure as possible--especially if they are making the work situation for others uncomfortable. what's good for the goose (upsetting their coworkers) is good for the gander (putting pressure on these workers). i was taught this by two different administrators, one a don, one a business person--in a seminar on how to handle difficult employees. this is just how difficult problem employees have to be dealt with when they will not respond to gentle discussions and conform. when you hear people talking about "why doesn't somebody do something about these employees", well, this is what has to be done, if the manager has been trained in knowing how to do this. ever hear of anyone being fired for a "bad attitude"? it's not likely at a staff nurse level. believe me, you don't want someone with a constant bad or nasty attitude around. they are miserable to work with and cause all kinds of problems with cohesiveness. everyone breathes a sigh of relief when they are gone. someone has to do the dirty work of running them out the door. people complain, "no one does anything about these people", but when i tell you how it can be accomplished, you say, "that's mean", or "unfair". you need to be a manager and have to manage one or two of these types to appreciate what i saying. haven't you ever worked with a really rotten cna who just never responded to any kind confrontations? you haven't lived until you've had to deal with someone with bad attitude that is defiant.

Scrubby · Dec 18, 2007

[during my shift, which i had not actually clocked in but had received report because i had done smething hospital ssociated prior to that day that i needed to fill out a form for, i went to go speak to a manager about an issue i was having with my preceptor. although i did not leace the unit, because this manager's office is on the unit i was told that i had abandoned my patient assignment. this does not make sense to me because although i know i should have informed my preceptor, i was not included on the census as i am on orientation, and i did not actually leave the unit. ultimately my preceptor is the one responsible so would it make sense for me to receive a write up for pt. abandonment? who should i take this to?]

i think that there have been a lot of assumptions being made on this board. we don't know what the other issue with the preceptor was, yet some ppl here are coming up with all sort of theories on bell83 being a trouble maker.

i do agree that you always should tell someone where you are going. and yes you are responsible not the preceptor. perhaps they were a little harsh writing you up for abandonment straight away instead of giving you a warning but my advice here is learn from this mistake and dont do it again.

however i don't agree that you should come down on someone like a ton of bricks who is asking for advice. it's not constructive at all.

daytonite from reading your posts i'm concerned here about some of your attitudes towards what you perceive to be 'difficult employees' and i quote:

[you make their work situation as uncomfortable as possible by applying as much pressure as possible--especially if they are making the work situation for others uncomfortable. ]

sorry but i found this comment very disturbing. putting pressure on someone who is clearly not coping well may put patients at risk. and why just so you have the means to fire them? is trying to work with them to sort out their attitude in a less bullying way too hard for you? glad your not my manager.

UM Review RN, ASN, RN · Dec 18, 2007

yes, absolutely. speaking to someone about their attitude doesn't always work, believe me. how do you think work situations where there are nasty staff nurses that no one seems able to control come to be in the first place? you can speak to some of these people (i know, i did), but some of them just don't respond, don't want to respond really, and continue to act in their nasty little ways. i'm not kidding. they will look a manager in the face, get defiant, and tell them "you can't do anything to me because i don't like someone!" if you've never been a manager then you've never experienced this kind of stubborness and insubordination, and it is a real shock. when you are a good worker and employee it is very hard to believe that there are people who you might be working shoulder to shoulder with who have totally opposite beliefs and attitudes about work. it was a reality shock that hit me hard when i first got into supervision and management and i had a hard time believing that any rn could act like that, but some do. not everyone is committed to being a team player. you have to think of them as weeds in a garden. you just have to dig them out with any tool that will do the job. if it comes down to them having made some mistake, then you hit them with disciplinary action and hit them hard. you watch and wait for them to make mistakes and hit them with disciplinary action again. you make their work situation as uncomfortable as possible by applying as much pressure as possible--especially if they are making the work situation for others uncomfortable. what's good for the goose (upsetting their coworkers) is good for the gander (putting pressure on these workers). i was taught this by two different administrators, one a don, one a business person--in a seminar on how to handle difficult employees. this is just how difficult problem employees have to be dealt with when they will not respond to gentle discussions and conform. when you hear people talking about "why doesn't somebody do something about these employees", well, this is what has to be done, if the manager has been trained in knowing how to do this. ever hear of anyone being fired for a "bad attitude"? it's not likely at a staff nurse level. believe me, you don't want someone with a constant bad or nasty attitude around. they are miserable to work with and cause all kinds of problems with cohesiveness. everyone breathes a sigh of relief when they are gone. someone has to do the dirty work of running them out the door. people complain, "no one does anything about these people", but when i tell you how it can be accomplished, you say, "that's mean", or "unfair". you need to be a manager and have to manage one or two of these types to appreciate what i saying. haven't you ever worked with a really rotten cna who just never responded to any kind confrontations? you haven't lived until you've had to deal with someone with bad attitude that is defiant.

this is one of the uglier sides to our profession and imo, one of the greatest contributors to the shortage of bedside nurses.

imo, if someone's a bad nurse, she'll dig her own grave; no one needs to lead her to the cemetary and dig the hole for her.