I am taking online A&P II at a community college. The course includes a lab component, though lab is not a requirement for the nursing program to which I have been admitted. I am not squeamish (used to be an EMT), nor do I oppose human cadaver dissection. I do, however, object to animal dissection for ethical reasons. I contacted my professor to request an alternative to the cow eye and heart dissection activities citing my ethical objection to animal dissection, and the fact that I haven't eaten or worn animals for over two decades. I expressed my willingness to engage in an alternate activity, such as an interactive, multimedia software program (we already utilize such software to conduct experiments on virtual lab animals). My request was denied. I was informed that if I chose not to do the dissections, I would be penalized with a deduction in points.
In response to my e-mail asking my professor to reconsider, I received the following reply (excerpt):
Would you tell someone who is badly mangled in a auto accident and bleeding to death that you cannot work on them because you are a vegetarian? I would hope not. If so, then you should choose another career.
My professor also called my ethical opposition to animal dissection into question with the following statement:
I understand being a vegetarian but this assignment does not require you to eat these animal specimens.
I found his message to be inappropriate, offensive, and ridiculous. I would like to obtain some outside perspective and would appreciate any comments you may have about this situation. Thanks.
CuriousMe, I agree with most of your comment. My initial response to this thread was for the OP to opt out of the lab class, since the lab isn't required. If lab is required/desirable, the OP could also find an alternative. Some online classes have interactive media labs. He/She has many options, for which I am thankful!
If the OP feels they were treated inappropriately by the faculty's response to a request (the OP was not *expecting* the curriculum to change just for them, merely inquiring as to if it was a possibilty and stating a legitimate reason for wanting to find an alternative), which I personally believe the OP was, then it is their right and responsibility to take it up with the department head.
What bothers me are the people insinuating the OP would make a poor nurse because of this!
As far as the poster's who's perspective is that the OP should pursue a different career, I suppose everyone has a right to their opinion, that's what the OP wants as well right....the right to have their own opinion?
I don't think that even requesting the curriculum to be changed was appropriate. This is a college course, not Burger King....it's not a "Have it Your Way" kind of experience. The school should not have to accommodate someone's choice (and it is a choice, ethically based or not).
As a different example, should an art major be exempted from a pottery class because the kiln uses diesel fuel and the student is ethically opposed to fossil fuel use? No, if the student has made a decision based on their personal belief's that is not in line with main stream thought....well, the onerous is on them to make accommodations in their life, not the rest of society.
Stellagirl you are the naive one. You obliviously still don't get it even after all the posts explaining it. Maybe you should stop jumping all over the OP and think for a moment and maybe you will get it. But somehow I doubt you will.
First of all, get over yourself. What is inappropriate is nursing students all over the place complaining and whining about things they don't want to do or they deserved this grade or that grade, or this part of the program is bad or blah, blah, blah. Chances are your college has carefully reviewed the program that you are taking and thought it was important or they would not have included it. We have ALL had to endure these procedures and we have all survived. While I respect your decision to be vegan and your choice in organic clothing and shoes, my question is...are you not going to inject certain insulins because some are obtained from animals? Heparin injections?? Will you go so far as to not administer certain meds or complete certain procedures because animals were killed and yes brutally dissected for the research involved. Where will you draw the line?? The truth is naive one, is that you are entering a field that is comprised on the study of animals, the use of animal products and parts, and that these poor creatures are killed for further research everyday, everywhere, all of the time. It doesn't make it right...that is just the way it is.
To CuriousMe: I don't think there's anything wrong with asking. Students ask for exemptions from assignments all the time for all sorts of reasons anywhere on a scale from ridiculous to justified (illness and travel and family issues, "dog ate my homework"). Sure the prof is perfectly justified in saying no in this case or in any of the examples I just listed - it's his or her class. But everyone deserves respect, and the OP did not get it from his/her instructor. Or very many people on this forum. It's really sad.
To CuriousMe: I don't think there's anything wrong with asking.
That's the wonderful thing about opinions....they never have to match anyone else's :)
Students ask for exemptions from assignments all the time for all sorts of reasons anywhere on a scale from ridiculous to justified (illness and travel and family issues, "dog ate my homework"). Sure the prof is perfectly justified in saying no in this case or in any of the examples I just listed - it's his or her class. But everyone deserves respect, and the OP did not get it from his/her instructor. Or very many people on this forum. It's really sad.
The OP wasn't looking for an exemption for AN assignment (ie the dog ate my homework), they were asking to change the curriculum of the course. That's a really big difference. This wasn't a general science class in which one lab session would be a dissection....it was an A&P lab. They wanted to have a customized curriculum and do different lab activities than the rest of the students taking that course.
The Proff's communication style wasn't ideal, however I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to have a student ask to change the curriculum of the course.
I reiterate, if the OP chooses a vegan lifestyle (for whatever reason), it's their responsibility to find a course that doesn't violate their lifestyle choice....not the school's.
I reiterate, if the OP chooses a vegan lifestyle (for whatever reason), it's their responsibility to find a course that doesn't violate their lifestyle choice....not the school's.
Agreed. :)
But when a student makes a request of a professor for ANY reason, as long as the student is polite, has a legitimate concern, and not with an offensive attitude assuming their request will be granted, they deserve to be treated with respect and have their question answered in a professional manner. This instructor was unprofessional. There is no way a comment like "this assignment does not require you to eat these animal specimens" is ever, ever, appropriate. If the professor does not fully understand what the OP's issue with the dissection is (obviously no one is going to go into a dissection thinking they will be expected to consume part of the specimen!), than he or she should have asked for more clarification. That response is ignorant. The professor should be reprimanded.
If the professor was as frustrated by the request as you seem to think he or she might be, a simple "no, that will not be possible" would have sufficed. How hard is that...6 words? Professional and concise. Part of being an instructor is being patient with people who don't understand yet what you understand, and responding to their questions in a way that fosters understanding and growth towards knowledge. If the professor doesn't have the patience to respond to a simple e-mail without taking their frustration at the question out on the question asker, they're in the wrong field.
Maybe the professor should take their own advice, since he or she is so keen on being judgmental of others' suitabilities for their career of choice.
But when a student makes a request of a professor for ANY reason, as long as the student is polite, has a legitimate concern, and not implying the professor has to/should say yes, they deserve to be treated with respect and have their question answered in a professional manner. This instructor was unprofessional. There is no way a comment like "this assignment does not require you to eat these animal specimens" is ever, ever, appropriate. If the professor does not fully understand what the OP's issue with the dissection is (obviously no one is going to go into a dissection thinking they will be expected to consume part of the specimen!), than he or she should have asked for more clarification. That response is ignorant. The professor should be reprimanded.
If the professor was as frustrated by the request as you seem to think he or she might be, a simple "no, that will not be possible" would have sufficed. How hard is that...6 words? Professional and concise. Part of being an instructor is being patient with people who don't understand yet what you understand, and responding to their questions in a way that fosters understanding and growth towards knowledge. If the professor doesn't have the patience to respond to a simple e-mail without taking their frustration at the question out on the question asker, they're in the wrong field.
Maybe the professor should take their own advice, since he or she is so keen on being judgmental of others' suitabilities for their career of choice.
As I mentioned, the Proff's communication style wasn't ideal. I guess it depends on the person though, because it's the kind of thing I'd just let roll off my back. After all, what do I care if someone who doesn't really know me and who I'll never meet again (and by the way isn't a nurse) thinks I should pursue a new career?
There's no positive outcome in "reporting" this Proff's communication. The only thing to be gained is retribution, and my life is far to short to waste time on that.
There's no positive outcome in "reporting" this Proff's communication. The only thing to be gained is retribution...
I don't know...maybe if the professor responded in this way to the OP, they are equally as unprofessional with other students. In which case, if I were the department head, I would want to know and address this issue, because I would want my department to have a good reputation for quality education and approachable instructors.
No, I don't think the OP should go running to the department head as revenge or expect any result at all, but I do feel the department has a right to know about this negative experience. What they choose to do with the information is up to them.
At the bottom line, schools are buisnesses too, and want to have a good reputation so more students will enroll and give the tuition money to their school instead of the one down the road. Kinda sad, but true.
I totally support the OP. I dissected a cat and frankly got zero benefit from looking at those preserved organs, if I could even tell that's what they were. I think I would have learned more by a virtual dissection, truth be told.
I don't know...maybe if the professor responded in this way to the OP, they are equally as unprofessional with other students. In which case, if I were the department head, I would want to know and address this issue, because I would want my department to have a good reputation for quality education and approachable instructors.
No, I don't think the OP should go running to the department head as revenge or expect any result at all, but I do feel the department has a right to know about this negative experience. What they choose to do with the information is up to them.
At the bottom line, schools are buisnesses too, and want to have a good reputation so more students will enroll and give the tuition money to their school instead of the one down the road. Kinda sad, but true.
Again, I guess it depends on how serious this is viewed as. I don't really see it as anything more than a difference of communication style. The Prof could have phrased his answer differently. As a manager, if it was brought to my attention, that's likely what I would say to the Prof. then move on to the business of the day.
The OP would be better served using their time searching for a course that meet's their needs.
Again, I guess it depends on how serious this is viewed as. I don't really see it as anything more than a difference of communication style. The Prof could have phrased his answer differently. As a manager, if it was brought to my attention, that's likely what I would say to the Prof. then move on to the business of the day.
And if that's the manager's decision, that's great. And like you mentioned in your last comment, if that's the case, it may not even be worth the OP's time. That's a decision the OP will have to make. If it were me, I'd write a letter about it, put it in the mail, and move on - a little wiser for the experience when it comes to picking courses by their requirements and the reputation of professors in the future.
The OP would be better served using their time searching for a course that meet's their needs.
Once again, agreed. :) This is the perfect time to come to a concensus, because I need to get to sleep. I enjoyed being able to have a reasonable discussion about this with you, CuriousMe. You make good points. And I admit I need to grow a thicker skin most of the time.
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
Did you expect to start a firestorm, sarailyse? :)
Just want to add quickly. . . I was lucky in that one of my clinical sites was a small hospital that did lots of surgeries. They let us lowly nursing students in for as many surgeries as we cared to see. Living tissue looks so very different from even chemically preserved. That was quite amazing.
If anything, I think the actual task of dissecting animals in lab is a good exercise in starting to desensite one from the gross factor that simply becomes the nurses' day to day. Puke, peepee and poop probably just does not seem to be that bad later on after you've dissected a real animal.
For me, animal dissection was an invaluable experience and supplemented well what I was learning sitting in lecture. I only wish I could have had the opportunity on a human cadaver instead of rats, cats and sheep parts. I truly believe technology will never replace this opportunity afforded in lab.
There are courses out there online that accommodate people opposed to dissection and because of that I don't expect professors to make exceptions for people in classes where actual dissections are required. I do however believe the OP's prof's comments were way over the top and unnecessary.
:)
CuriousMe
2,642 Posts
As far as the poster's who's perspective is that the OP should pursue a different career, I suppose everyone has a right to their opinion, that's what the OP wants as well right....the right to have their own opinion?
I don't think that even requesting the curriculum to be changed was appropriate. This is a college course, not Burger King....it's not a "Have it Your Way" kind of experience. The school should not have to accommodate someone's choice (and it is a choice, ethically based or not).
As a different example, should an art major be exempted from a pottery class because the kiln uses diesel fuel and the student is ethically opposed to fossil fuel use? No, if the student has made a decision based on their personal belief's that is not in line with main stream thought....well, the onerous is on them to make accommodations in their life, not the rest of society.