NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 38

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   zenman
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    The ultimate goal is spelled out in the most wicked and nasty of the BSN-entry indoctrinations:

    BSN = 'professional' nurse

    ADN = 'technical' nurse.

    Maybe they are looking at history (1950s) when Mildred Montag did a doctoral dissertation, "The Education of Nursing Technicians" who were to assist the "professional" nurse. (Similar to what PTs and OTs have done today with PT and OT assistants.) The ADN came from this project and was geared to solve the nursing shortage. Of course any other profession knows this is the wrong way to solve a shortage.
  2. by   RN34TX
    Quote from zenman
    Maybe they are looking at history (1950s) when Mildred Montag did a doctoral dissertation, "The Education of Nursing Technicians" who were to assist the "professional" nurse. (Similar to what PTs and OTs have done today with PT and OT assistants.) The ADN came from this project and was geared to solve the nursing shortage. Of course any other profession knows this is the wrong way to solve a shortage.
    It was in fact, geared to solve the nursing shortage, and was not, what Montag had in mind.
    She was quoted to have feared that ADN's and BSN's would end up being interchanged and indistguinishable.

    Her concern became materialized, and right or wrong, an ADN by today's definition, is hardly any BSN's "technical assistant."

    ADN's are far more independent with a broad scope of practice and can hardly be compared to PT and OT assistants.

    And if in fact they are merely technical assistants, then where is the BSN who is supposed to be in charge of my patients every day? I don't see him/her anywhere.
  3. by   RN34TX
    Quote from NephroBSN
    And as others have said many professions are pushing for Master's entry. Do we really want to be the last group to jump on the bandwagon?
    Interesting point.
    As much as I see comments from some BSN's claiming that ADN's who do not rally for a minimum BSN requirement are "keeping the profession down" I often wonder how those same BSN's would react if MSN's began proclaiming that MSN's should be the minimum level of entry for RN licensure.

    Would those BSN's then be labeled as "defensive" like the ADN's when trying to justify their place in the profession?
  4. by   RN34TX
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    Asked this in another thread......

    In countries where BSN is the one point of entry, how is it, nursing is still not respected as it should be, as a profession overall, and why are so many clamoring to practice here in the USA where ADN is the major point of entry to RN practice?

    Have YET to hear anyone respond to this one.
    I can only respond to this one in a sense that I work with a lot of Canadian nurses who migrated to TX.

    Many are often under the impression that they were lured here for warm weather and fun in the sun.

    However, many express to me on many days that they long to be back home and would do so in a heartbeat if the job opportunities came even close to what they enjoy in TX.

    They all have BSN's where I work. Most come from a province that requires a BSN for RN licensure.

    Those same provinces that require a BSN for licensure also offer a very dismal job market to accompany such a requirement.

    Every Canadian nurse I work with tells me that no full time job opportunities are to be found in Canada. They all work part time so that benefits do not have to be paid.

    There is a reason why so many Canadian nurses are here in Texas and it's not the warm weather.

    So much for what a BSN requirement has done for them.
  5. by   teeituptom
    A Nurse by any other name is still a Nurse
  6. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from zenman
    Maybe they are looking at history (1950s) when Mildred Montag did a doctoral dissertation, "The Education of Nursing Technicians" who were to assist the "professional" nurse. (Similar to what PTs and OTs have done today with PT and OT assistants.) The ADN came from this project and was geared to solve the nursing shortage. Of course any other profession knows this is the wrong way to solve a shortage.
    You say that the ADN "project" was geared to solve the nursing shortage. By that standard, so was the BSN "project". Both were geared to move nursing away from apprenticeships and towards college level preps.

    ADN might have been designed to 'solve the nursing shortage' but it most certainly WAS NOT 'decreasing' the standards in a shortage. It was seen, even at the time, as an improvement.

    The technical/professional garbage is just that. What those that envisioned such a design failed to realize was the great success of ADNs of producing 'professional' nurses.

    But the marketplace and workplace didn't fail to realize this success: Indeed, in their first 25 yrs, ADN programs expanded from 0 to 700 programs. The reason why: it's huge success at making nurses.

    The technical/professional distinction NEVER took off, and it was NEVER a valid description and it will NEVER BE a valid description. It is nothing short of a slur.

    The ANA announced its BSN-entry plan in 1965

    In 1978, it announced the goal to have legislation passed in every state to require BSN entry by 1985.

    In 1982, it announced the goal to have legislation passed in every state to require BSN entry by 1995.

    in 2002, it announced the goal to have legislation passed in every state to require 3/4ths of nurses to be BSN entry by 2010.

    Only one state tried to pass such legislation, N. Dakota. N. Dakota, after more than 10 yrs effort, never got more than 55% BSN staffing in its hospitals, and so, abandoned the project and repealed the BSN-entry law as UNWORKABLE.
    Until that time, NY was considering the legislation about which this thread is titled. While the attempts haven't died, N. Dakota's example of the UNWORKABILITY of such a law has ensured that the attempts will not be successful, in NY, or ANYWHERE else in the States.

    So, as we approach 2010, expect the ANA to push back its date for inception of its 40 yr pipe dream another decade. And then another. And then another. And then, yes again, another decade.

    60% of RNs are ADN graduates. Like their BSN PEERS, these nurses are the everyday professionals in the trenches.

    Technical? Only those nurses that think their 'professionalism' is tied to a status they will never see in their lifetimes. If BSN-entry is the definition of a 'profession' then nursing will NEVER be a profession; and we are ALL 'technical' nurses.

    http://www.nursingworld.org/ojin/topic18/tpc18_3.htm:
    "Although a number of models for differentiating nursing roles have been proposed, they have been difficult to implement in health care areas where identical licensure implies that "a nurse is a nurse is a nurse. Attempts to identify variables that can distinguish educational preparation in practice settings have yielded few that can be easily measured."

    "Some have argued that establishing the baccalaureate degree as the minimum requirement for entry into practice has racist implications because it presents an additional barrier to people of color who have not had equal access to higher education and could potentially be excluded from the benefits and status of professional nursing (Mason, Backer, & Georges, 1991)"

    ADN programs put out twice as many blacks, twice as many men, twice as many native Americans and three times as many hispanics as BSN programs. Not to mention that ADN graduates are, on average, 8 yrs older than BSN grads. Not to mention that BSN programs are biased against 'non-traditional' students.

    In all but one of the above criteria (age), nursing is seriously behind the 'community' averages. A decision to move nursing EVEN FURTHER away from the community's makeup cannot be seen as an 'improvement'. Bland reassurances to 'fix' said problems cannot be taken at face value, as the problem is ALREADY endemic; changing the standards WOULD ONLY MAKE IT WORSE.

    No, the BSN entry MUST first address its inherent diversity problems BEFORE attempting to make these unaddressed problems 'universal' to nursing.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on May 15, '06
  7. by   DusktilDawn
    Quote from RN34TX
    I can only respond to this one in a sense that I work with a lot of Canadian nurses who migrated to TX.

    Many are often under the impression that they were lured here for warm weather and fun in the sun.

    However, many express to me on many days that they long to be back home and would do so in a heartbeat if the job opportunities came even close to what they enjoy in TX.

    They all have BSN's where I work. Most come from a province that requires a BSN for RN licensure.

    Those same provinces that require a BSN for licensure also offer a very dismal job market to accompany such a requirement.

    Every Canadian nurse I work with tells me that no full time job opportunities are to be found in Canada. They all work part time so that benefits do not have to be paid.

    There is a reason why so many Canadian nurses are here in Texas and it's not the warm weather.

    So much for what a BSN requirement has done for them.
    Exactly why I'm working in Michigan. I would not have been able to work full-time as an RN in Canada where I live or have the job opportunities that I do now. What they are offering is part-time, yet they will want you to work full-time hours without the benefits that goes with being full-time (dental, prescriptions, optometry, etc), or even better (insert sarcasm) they will offer "temporary part-time" or "temporary full-time" that they can have go on indefinately.
  8. by   ZASHAGALKA
    This below is a telling statement: it would be easy to expand BSN programs in a BSN entry environment because most ADN instructors are Masters prepared and could easily be incorporated into expanding BSN programs.

    Say that again?

    ADN programs are composed of BSN-comparable instruction!

    Telling comment, indeed. Mind you, this article is PRO-BSN entry:

    http://www.nursingworld.org/ojin/topic18/tpc18_3.htm

    "Agreement about BSN requirement for entry into practice should disenfranchise no one. Qualified nursing faculty are a vital resource. The majority of associate degree nursing educators have masters degrees and many have doctorates and are thus qualified to teach in baccalaureate programs. With projections that the current faculty shortage will worsen, it is inconceivable that experienced and capable teachers will be unemployed if the educational requirement for entry into practice is raised to the baccalaureate level. Faculty in associate degree and baccalaureate programs have generally taught in isolation from one another, however, educational philosophies aside, they have much in common. They have attended the same graduate schools, spent hours developing curricula and writing learning objectives, agonized over failing students, and written voluminous self-studies. When the demand arises, they can learn to teach together. Grenier and Dewis (1995) describe the successful assimilation of faculty from a university and a hospital school of nursing in the development of a joint baccalaureate program in Canada."
  9. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Another telling statement. Forget 'technical' vs. 'professional'. The term RN itself is a slimy term and should be done away with for the insult that it obviously is - in favor, of course, of 'advance practice' status.

    You BSNs, you see, YOU are holding back the 'profession'.

    http://www.nursingworld.org/ojin/topic18/tpc18_3.htm:

    "Doors to future educational changes should be kept open, but moving education to the BSN level is the first step. Noting the increasing complexity of health care, some nurse leaders are concerned that a baccalaureate degree is no longer sufficient preparation for practice. They advocate master's or even doctoral level education and abandonment of the Registered Nurse title in favor of an advanced practice role that is clearly distinguished from entry into practice at the associate degree level. While raising the educational bar even higher can possibly be justified in terms of the knowledge base needed for advancing professional practice, we need to pay attention to past lessons and view with caution any proposed solution that would further split the profession and separate nurses with college degrees from the ranks of bedside caregivers."

    Hmmm, I wonder just what 'past lessons' this is talking about?

    I also wonder how you are going to get all these ANP and DRs to stay at the bedside. But never fear, just like PT/OT 'professions', hospitals can always 'farm' those bedside jobs out to 'techs'. And then, they can hire ANPs to be the managers. Wow, pay a few ANPs 120k/yr to be nursing 'managers', and the remaining bulk of the nursing staff can NOW be bought for 20k/yr.

    What a grand idea! The bedside 'nurse' might no longer be a 'nurse', but their 'managers' sure know lots more about nursing. . . Enough to even, finally, be 'professionals'.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on May 15, '06
  10. by   subee
    Quote from DusktilDawn
    Exactly why I'm working in Michigan. I would not have been able to work full-time as an RN in Canada where I live or have the job opportunities that I do now. What they are offering is part-time, yet they will want you to work full-time hours without the benefits that goes with being full-time (dental, prescriptions, optometry, etc), or even better (insert sarcasm) they will offer "temporary part-time" or "temporary full-time" that they can have go on indefinately.
    So am I hearing that nurses leave jobs in Canada for the same reasons the leave jobs in the US? And who is Canada expecting to take care of their patients? Has the shortage become such a crisis that the public is demanding changes. Until the public gets involved, nothing will change.
  11. by   RNsRWe
    Wow, this is some thread. I posted awhile back, but I can see that the discussion isn't really about NYS requiring nurses to obtain a 4-year degree, but really what the nurses involved in the discussion think about their own place on the Nursing Totem Pole. And it's disturbing to me, a brandy-new graduate (completed RN program last week).

    My program was a notoriously difficult ADN one. Never described anywhere as "technical" in nature; it included a full complement of liberal arts/ humanities requirements. Somewhere in this thread I saw that someone had posted the difference in the ADN and BSN programs by the college's description of each. I found that difference surprising, since the description of the BSN program matched MY ADN program quite well. The college refers to it as a professional program, not a 'technical' one. For those looking for that adjective, people are usually referred to the 9-month BOCES/VOTEC LPN program.

    At any rate, what's really killing me here is that during the two years of hospital clinicals, I didn't see anyone I could pick out as a BSN over those who were ADN RNs. Sometimes, it was hard to distinguish the LPNs, either. Point is, NO ONE wore the BSN education as some kind of beacon of enlightenment from which they could shine better patient care. The RNs were RNs, period. Perhaps, in the lunchrooms when students weren't around, this argument flourished. But, for what it's worth, the patients sure didn't know the difference. Good care=good care.

    I hope I don't find myself on a unit with BSNs who deem me less "professional" than themselves....I guarantee that won't go over well. Neither will an attitude that I am less worthy of being a nurse, or that my degree is somehow a shortcut.

    I distinctly remember a situation during a student rotation that had some of my classmates in the same setting as students from a nearby BSN program: all of us were within the same number of months of graduation, and those particular BSN students didn't have a clue how to do a pretty simple procedure that our students had been doing for about a month. Not trying to rile BSNs, just point out that this 'technical' skill was less instructed to the BSNs than the ADN students at that point. So I would have a hard time believing that they were "better" at nursing than any of us merely by measure of the length of time they spent in school.

    I hope I'll be impressed more by my future co-workers' skills and attitudes than their credentials!
  12. by   DusktilDawn
    Quote from subee
    So am I hearing that nurses leave jobs in Canada for the same reasons the leave jobs in the US? And who is Canada expecting to take care of their patients? Has the shortage become such a crisis that the public is demanding changes. Until the public gets involved, nothing will change.
    Subee, where I live in Canada there should not be a nursing shortage, EVER. There are more than enough nurses that live in my area that would work in Canada if the job opportunities were available. Hospitals are understaffing to cut costs, at the expense of the nurses (and patients), not because there are not enought nurses to fill vacancies. Canadian nurses are not able to find full-time jobs, that is one of the biggest incentives for many to leave. People are not going to want to get into a profession that has poor job prospects. Hospitals are offering part-time, casual, or temporary positions. They want staff that they can move around to whatever shift they want and at their beck and call. Part-time nurses can wind up working full-time hours without the benefits and the added bonus of jumping from days to afternoons to nights. Self-scheduling isn't an option. Vacations can be turned down at the last minute. No such thing as agency nurses in the hospitals.

    Restructuring/downsizing of hospitals has lead to more people being taken care of in long-term care facilities or at home, where nurses are paid less with inferior benefits as compared to being employed by a hospital. The city I live in went from having 4 hospitals to 2, numerous nurses were laid off because of this restructuring. This same situation also happened elsewhere in Ontario.

    Despite having worked for years (>10) at one facility as an RPN/LPN, I could not get a full-time job as an RN once I was done school, I was offered a temporary position. Generous of them, eh? Only 2 hospitals in this city, oh and they streamlined services, trauma at one, OB/L&D at the other, dialysis at one, NICU/Peds at the other, Pysch at one, oncology at the other, etc. I applied at the other hospital, and they also offered me a temporary position.

    Here is a site from ONA (Ontario Nurses Association)
    http://www.stillnotenoughnurses.ca/
    The equivalent of between 7,000 and 8,600 full-time jobs, Canada-wide, is being performed by nurses working overtime!
    There is almost a perfect correlation between overtime and sick time; additional hours worked are later taken off.
    Over the course of a year, some 16 million nursing hours are lost to injury and illness in Canada, equalling about 9,000 fulltime jobs.

    They neglect to mention how many part-time nurses are working full-time hours, or OT for straight time.

    The latter 1990s saw Community Care Access Centres (CCACs) boost their patronage of for-profit agencies by some 265 per cent as a market-driven system became the rule in homecare provision. The result was not a positive one for health professionals as unionized employers like the Victorian Order of Nurses (VON) were pushed out by firms paying lower salaries. And while the current provincial government has pumped over $100 million into homecare with the objective of boosting staff levels, evidence suggests that the proportion of full-time employment is not improving.
  13. by   japaho41
    Quote from 2ndCareerRN
    Good deal. If you want to be treated as a professional, why not require what is considered a professional degree. In just about every field I can think of that is a bachelor's , and in some cases a master's.

    bob
    I agree. For the profession of nursing to gain respect it must advance the academic requirement of to become a registered nurse. We could only hope that with increase academic status comes comensation. Most institutions provide little or no incentive for nurses to obtain their BSN. A wave of change is necessary to further the profession of nursing.

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