NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 10

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   Energizer Bunny
    Get off your high horse and see what is really happening here....most people can't afford to put food on their tables, much less pay for a four year degree!

    Intelligent conversation ceased here when people started knocking other nurses down instead of all of us supporting each other. Now, I'm done. You go ahead and say whatever you want.

    I said you are right. Isn't that enough?
  2. by   PeninsulaRN
    Quote from CNM2B
    Get off your high horse and see what is really happening here....most people can't afford to put food on their tables, much less pay for a four year degree!

    Intelligent conversation ceased here when people started knocking other nurses down instead of all of us supporting each other. Now, I'm done. You go ahead and say whatever you want.

    I said you are right. Isn't that enough?
    Actually no, its not enough. What is required here is intelligent discourse between professional people, not a throwing up of hands and sentiments remarkably similar to "Screw you guys I'm going home".

    My opinion doesn't necessarily equate with a high horse, either. I merely maintain that education is important.

    So go on thinking I'm posting from an academic ivory tower, if you must. It has already been said in a number of posts the importance of grandfathering in existing ADN nurses so as not to demote them to the level of a practical nurse, and so I'm not taking food from your table by advocating higher education.
  3. by   angel337
    Quote from CNM2B
    It's because of other nurses that have BSN's that those that have ADN's are looked down upon. Grow up and realize that not everyone has the luxury of time, money, etc. to be able to get a BSN. There may be tuition reimbursement but when you have other HUGE factors in your life, taking that much money out on loans, etc. looks impossible.

    On second thought...you know what? You are all right that think BSN's are better. Those of us that are "only" going to get our ADN's are all losers that just want to get by with the "easiest" out. We're all a bunch of low life's that don't want to further our education or get anywhere in life. You're all right! There.
    no one said you were a low life, you said it. why so defensive? i think everyone that has posted on this board made it CLEAR that this issue is not about who is better..adn vs bsn. it is about nurses having the same educational requirements. and like another poster said...you have ten years to do it and on top of that hospitals pay for it. don't be so childish. this is your career, not a cashier job at walmart. nurses need to quit having the attitude that they can't be replaced. anyone can be replaced. in other careers you have to stay on top of your education or guess what? someone else will take that job right from under your nose. wake up.
  4. by   teeituptom
    Defensive ehhh, maybe because some of the BSN comments I read here are inbetween condescending and slightly offensive in their nature.

    Now maybe I am just a simple ole AD RN, But RN is RN. regardless of degree. One over the other does not make it more professional. Thats the bottom line. All the public will see is a Nurse
  5. by   Erin RN
    Quote from teeituptom
    Defensive ehhh, maybe because some of the BSN comments I read here are inbetween condescending and slightly offensive in their nature.

    Now maybe I am just a simple ole AD RN, But RN is RN. regardless of degree. One over the other does not make it more professional. Thats the bottom line. All the public will see is a Nurse

    I have to agree with you, Tom on both points! I am NOT resistant to furthering my education, on the contrary, I am continually taking classes, new cetifications and reading literature relating to my present field. What I take issue with is someone saying that by taking additional general, public health and management classes I will then be a "professional"..give me a break! The argument that the BSN will open more doors is also questionable to me. I have done upper level management and one of those postions was in a public health state project. Probably more important than the degree is how one presents, experience and interpersonal skills at least that has been my experience. Many other healthcare professionals already see us as a profession as does much of the public for those that do not, I do not believe that all of us obtaining the BSN is going to change their mind. In my opinion there are a couple of reasons for this:

    1. The field is dominated by females: Unfortunately although we have come a long way we still have some battles to fight to be considered equal.

    2. The misconception of what a nurse does and the knowledge required: Many people do still see us as the MD's handmaiden, fair? NO but it remains. For those of you still in school spouting that unless you have a BSN you will not be respected, I have news for you...those individuals that have no respect for our profession will not care if you have the BSN you will still be "just a nurse".

    As far as tution reimbursement...Everyplace I have worked does have a program however they have all reimbursed 1000.00 to 2000.00 a year in tuition that is merely a small drop in the bucket as far as tuition goes. When I decide to finish my degree it will be in something that open more doors for me and have a curriculum that stimulates me. For me neither management nor Public health were in the least stimulating.

    I think one of our main problems as a profesion is not that others do not see us as a profession it that we do not see ourselves as a profession and that there is a constant division and constant bickering, just look around this board..LPN vs ADN vs BSN. NP vs PA. CRNA vs AA..constant fighting over who is more important better educated and the most competent.
  6. by   orrnlori
    Quote from Erin RN
    I have to agree with you, Tom on both points! I am NOT resistant to furthering my education, on the contrary, I am continually taking classes, new cetifications and reading literature relating to my present field. What I take issue with is someone saying that by taking additional general, public health and management classes I will then be a "professional"..give me a break! The argument that the BSN will open more doors is also questionable to me. I have done upper level management and one of those postions was in a public health state project. Probably more important than the degree is how one presents, experience and interpersonal skills at least that has been my experience. Many other healthcare professionals already see us as a profession as does much of the public for those that do not, I do not believe that all of us obtaining the BSN is going to change their mind. In my opinion there are a couple of reasons for this:

    1. The field is dominated by females: Unfortunately although we have come a long way we still have some battles to fight to be considered equal.

    2. The misconception of what a nurse does and the knowledge required: Many people do still see us as the MD's handmaiden, fair? NO but it remains. For those of you still in school spouting that unless you have a BSN you will not be respected, I have news for you...those individuals that have no respect for our profession will not care if you have the BSN you will still be "just a nurse".

    As far as tution reimbursement...Everyplace I have worked does have a program however they have all reimbursed 1000.00 to 2000.00 a year in tuition that is merely a small drop in the bucket as far as tuition goes. When I decide to finish my degree it will be in something that open more doors for me and have a curriculum that stimulates me. For me neither management nor Public health were in the least stimulating.

    I think one of our main problems as a profesion is not that others do not see us as a profession it that we do not see ourselves as a profession and that there is a constant division and constant bickering, just look around this board..LPN vs ADN vs BSN. NP vs PA. CRNA vs AA..constant fighting over who is more important better educated and the most competent.
    Excellent response. I agree with you 100%. I am finishing a bachelor's degree this summer, but it's NOT a BSN because a BSN will get me nowhere outside of my hospital. But it WILL get me into my MSN program (it's amazing, I've found a master's program that GETS the idea that a bachelor's is a bachelor's when it comes to nursing, what is this world coming to?). I will thus have the best of both worlds, my MSN will trump the BSN that is so highly regarded by some here and my BS with it's emphasis in psychology/management/business will give me soooooo much more than the BSN will give if I choose to go outside the hospital.

    To the poster that wants "intelligent" conversation, I say I agree, let's talk intelligently about education as a whole and quit dividing it up as though only a single entity in education makes one "professional". The nurses that have certifications in their chosen specialties are in deed professional nurses!!!!!! Yet no college will touch those certifications as legitimate education. As we argue here, the colleges and universities are looking down their noses at excellent educational classes that the lowly little ADN obtains every year to make her the best and most highly trained nurses there are.

    If I'm bleeding to death from a trauma, believe me, I'd rather have ED nurses with their trauma certs working on me than the BSN who's had 6 hours of community health classes. Those trauma certs, and all the other certs that nurses work to obtain and keep are worth their weight in gold to our patients. But higher education won't touch them as being a source of legitimate education. Give me a break.
    Last edit by orrnlori on May 9, '04
  7. by   PeninsulaRN
    Quote from orrnlori
    Excellent response. I agree with you 100%. I am finishing a bachelor's degree this summer, but it's NOT a BSN because a BSN will get me nowhere outside of my hospital. But it WILL get me into my MSN program (it's amazing, I've found a master's program that GETS the idea that a bachelor's is a bachelor's when it comes to nursing, what is this world coming to?). I will thus have the best of both worlds, my MSN will trump the BSN that is so highly regarded by some here and my BS with it's emphasis in psychology/management/business will give me soooooo much more than the BSN will give if I choose to go outside the hospital.

    To the poster that wants "intelligent" conversation, I say I agree, let's talk intelligently about education as a whole and quit dividing it up as though only a single entity in education makes one "professional". The nurses that have certifications in their chosen specialties are in deed professional nurses!!!!!! Yet no college will touch those certifications as legitimate education. As we argue here, the colleges and universities are looking down their noses at excellent educational classes that the lowly little ADN obtains every year to make her the best and most highly trained nurses there are.

    If I'm bleeding to death from a trauma, believe me, I'd rather have ED nurses with their trauma certs working on me than the BSN who's had 6 hours of community health classes. Those trauma certs, and all the other certs that nurse work to obtain and keep are worth their weight in gold to our patients. But higher education won't touch them as being a source of legitimate education. Give me a break.
    There comes a point when further posting is futile... as everyone is so involved in their own ideas they cannot hear the viewpoint of another.

    IMO, education is important. Period. I don't understand why it is something so vehemently opposed by so many nurses. I've never said anything about a "lowly ADN" and really do not wish to get into an argument of ADN vs BSN vs whatever else you want to throw in there to muddle the topic further.

    I'd also like to point out that continuing education (the certifications that you speak of) are not exclusive to nurses of one particular educational level. Baccalaureate prepared nurses should also be continuing their education, honing their skills, gaining certifications in their specialties.

    I'm not saying that BSNs are better nurses, only higher-educated ones, and if we were to raise the bar as far as didactic and clinical education were concerned I think it would go far to advance the profession.
  8. by   Erin RN
    Quote from orrnlori
    Excellent response. I agree with you 100%. I am finishing a bachelor's degree this summer, but it's NOT a BSN because a BSN will get me nowhere outside of my hospital. But it WILL get me into my MSN program (it's amazing, I've found a master's program that GETS the idea that a bachelor's is a bachelor's when it comes to nursing, what is this world coming to?). I will thus have the best of both worlds, my MSN will trump the BSN that is so highly regarded by some here and my BS with it's emphasis in psychology/management/business will give me soooooo much more than the BSN will give if I choose to go outside the hospital.

    To the poster that wants "intelligent" conversation, I say I agree, let's talk intelligently about education as a whole and quit dividing it up as though only a single entity in education makes one "professional". The nurses that have certifications in their chosen specialties are in deed professional nurses!!!!!! Yet no college will touch those certifications as legitimate education. As we argue here, the colleges and universities are looking down their noses at excellent educational classes that the lowly little ADN obtains every year to make her the best and most highly trained nurses there are.

    If I'm bleeding to death from a trauma, believe me, I'd rather have ED nurses with their trauma certs working on me than the BSN who's had 6 hours of community health classes. Those trauma certs, and all the other certs that nurses work to obtain and keep are worth their weight in gold to our patients. But higher education won't touch them as being a source of legitimate education. Give me a break.
    Good for you!! I have not yet been able to decide which degree I want to get. I have taken additional classes and am currently at right around 105 credits which means I really don't have far to go for a bachelors in something?? I have done additional general ed requirements and although some were interesting since I was able to choose what I wanted, they in no way made me a better nurse. I am currently on hiatus from college classes since I am enrolled in a year long life care planning certification program..once I finish that, I will be working toward my CCM (Certification in case management). Besides being a workers compensation case manager I have my own business reviewing medical malpractice as a certified legal nurse consultant. Eventually, I plan to just work for myself doing case management, life care planning and legal nursing. Do I consider myself a professional..He** yes, I do! Apparently all of the attorneys, insurance companies and employers do as well...as I am a pretty busy gal! I may end up just getting a generalized Bachelors so I can take classes that I want to take for my own personal growth but I do know I will not be doing the BSN..I have looked into it several times and I have no desire to go back to school to be a nurse...Why? because I am already a nurse and it seems rather pointless. For those that go that route..more power to them. I believe it is a personal decision. Now if it ever becomes mandated (which I highly doubt since these rumors were foating about 25 years ago). If everyone does become BSNs I am curious what we will have to fight about next? I am sure it will be something.. Erin
  9. by   Q.
    Off topic and I apologize, but I'm wondering what CNM2B means? (her screen name, her initials; what do they stand for).

    I'm reading it as Certified Nurse Midwife To Be. Is that correct?

    If so, that would be an interesting twist to the debate from an outside observer.
  10. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Ok, if all RNs will have to be baccalaureate-prepared or higher, what of LPNs? They are called nurses, rightfully such, just as we are--- but will not have bachelor's degrees. So, to me, this changing entry level to BSN is moot, if we are looking to "elevate our profession in others' eyes", unless we faze out LPNs completely. Am I wrong? I guess I dont' get where LPNs will fit in if all RN's will have to have BSN. The title of NURSE will still apply to those with one year of school/technical training, or just a little more, yet. Anyone? How do we differential "professional" nurses from "all others" when the public can't even get that AIDES and TECHS are not nurses even???? When employers consider a " nurse is a nurse is a nurse" so much of the time? I still think there will have to be a lot more done to elevate the status of nurses and nursing in others' eyes than making it all-BSN entry.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on May 9, '04
  11. by   BBFRN
    I wonder what will happen to the LPNs also. Are they also required to get their BSNs? For that matter, what about the Nurse Managers, etc.? Are they going to be required to get their MSNs? It seems to me that if they're really trying to "streamline" the nursing field that they would be getting everyone involved.
  12. by   mattsmom81
    Quote from PeninsulaRN
    Meh, I don't buy that argument.
    Its because of the educational disparities that nurses take issue with each other. If there were but one entry level requirement, much of that would be obsolete. Whether an RN chose to go on to a master's or doctoral level of education would be an individual decision.
    It pains me to see people say "just don't mess with my money" or "I don't have time". This is your career, not a hobby. Continuing education is paramount to a healthcare provider. Drifting along with the status quo is fine, I suppose, if you want to continue giving mediocre care.
    Education should be worth the expense and effort, in and of itself, IMO. Arh, but apparently my opinion differs greatly from the majority here.
    Carry on.
    I agree that the educational disparities cause some of the rifts and lack of solidarity in nursing. I support BSN as entry level for RN's if ONLY for solidarity. However, I suspect that as soon as the BSN is mandated, the MSN snobs will start the "I'm better than you' stuff. It seems to be engrained in this culture of nursing.

    I am required to do 100 hrs of education to renew my CCRN credential and demonstrate continued competency in my field of practice. I do NOT disdain education. But I DO disdain those who would try to force me to return to school at age 50...to repeat 90% of my coursework plus.....I've already paid those dues.

    It will be interesting to see the response of AD and Diploma nurses if return to school is ever mandated. It will be the last straw for this nurse.
  13. by   LadyT618
    Quote from mattsmom81
    I agree that the educational disparities cause some of the rifts and lack of solidarity in nursing. I support BSN as entry level for RN's if ONLY for solidarity. However, I suspect that as soon as the BSN is mandated, the MSN snobs will start the "I'm better than you' stuff. It seems to be engrained in this culture of nursing.

    I am required to do 100 hrs of education to renew my CCRN credential and demonstrate continued competency in my field of practice. I do NOT disdain education. But I DO disdain those who would try to force me to return to school at age 50...to repeat 90% of my coursework plus.....I've already paid those dues.

    It will be interesting to see the response of AD and Diploma nurses if return to school is ever mandated. It will be the last straw for this nurse.
    You know, I wasn't going to reply, but the one thing I did think about and this post kinda deals with is the 50+ crowd coming into nursing. Some of these people just want to get their ADN, become an RN and work their very best to be the best nurse they can be. My gripe with the whole thing is, after 10 years or so, these people really may not want to return to school....they may be happy where they are. I don't appreciate the fact that a registered nurse, who busted their butt to pass those boards, will be demoted if they refuse to go for their BSN in those 10 years. Talk about lack of solidarity and disrespect. Just another take on the whole thing. In my opinion, they haven't seen nursing shortage yet, if they allow this to happen.

    It's not to say ADN and diploma nurses are against higher education, that's a wrong way to look at it. Who would be actually against receiving a higher education at the expense of their employer? But let's get real. Who is to say who is the so called "better" nurse? Like igflamini said, if they decide BSN is the only thing good enough to have to enter the nursing field, then they really need to continue on that track and make MSN a requirement for managerial positions, and force all those BSN-holding supervisors to get their MSN, since people with higher education are better at being in "position."
    JMO.

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