Major Vent

chenoaspirit, ASN, RN · May 11, 2010

I feel the same way. It takes soooo much of my time to try to communicate with them. It takes away from my time with them and with my other patients. Like others have said....if they are here visiting, thats one thing, but if they LIVE here..learn the language. If not for themselves, then for the benefit of the others around them who have to deal with them. You can flame me if you want to, but I dont like risking my license or the well-being of the non-english-speaking patient. Its a risk to me and them and just not very smart.

Ahhphoey · May 11, 2010

I agree with the OP. Communication with people who live here, but chose not to learn the language can be very difficult and time-consuming. Where I work we are required by policy to use the language line with which the hospital has contracted for interpretation. We cannot use family members, however, staff members fluent in the language is acceptable. Problems arise though when you must drag out that double-handpiece phone multiple times throughout the shift because chances are you aren't going to only have one or two conversations with your patient within a 8 to 12 hour shift. You have to go through the process of dialing into the interpreter line, entering all the required information and then speak via the special phone with your patient and basically try to bundle all the information and questions together so you can get everything at once. Of course when you hang up that phone, the patient has just a few more questions that you don't understand and he/she won't understand the answers to. Meanwhile, you have another 4-5 patients (if med-surg) waiting for your attention.

I honestly feel guilty for getting frustrated at times, but I have always been leery about even visiting another country unless I learn to speak at least some of the language. No way could I move to another country without making any effort to learn the language.

Gerry1888RN · May 11, 2010

Why is it that Americans are annoyed by the fact that many people who were not born here don't speak English all the time. It's not like America own the English language. Why can't Americans invent their own language and call it American.

annacnatorn · May 11, 2010

this irks me as well! my own mother-in-law is from a spanish speaking latin american country and has been in the us for nearly 60 years. she often brags that she never has to use english. her dry cleaner, doctor, dentist, grocer, lottery ticket vendor, etc. all speak spanish. in fact, she refuses to do business with anyone who doesn't speak spanish. she does speak english -- when she wants to. but the liklihood that she will admit to understanding english is directly related to how well she likes what she's hearing. unfortunately, i've had all too many patients with this same english "deficiency."

yep, same story here. my grandparents came from the ukraine end of ww2, they had to, were forced to learn english before they obtained their citizenship. my grandparents taught their kids both english and ukrainian and sent them to school to learn better english, they had no special literature in their language to read, so they had to i say had to learn english inorder to do business in the usa.

i don't know it this sounds prejudice, but i think that everyone should be forced to learn the english language, after all, are we not "encouraged to pick up a second language"?

TDCHIM · May 11, 2010

I can certainly see that it's frustrating to try to communicate with someone who chooses not to learn English. However, I think perhaps we're using the term "choose" a bit loosely.

There are a lot of reasons people don't end up learning their new country's language when they emigrate from their native land beyond simply "choosing" not to learn it. Learning a new language takes a great deal of time; if you're working a couple of poorly paid jobs, you don't tend to have a lot of extra time on your hands. English is one of the most difficult languages to learn, so learning it takes quite a bit of effort. You may be able to easily acquire some basic words and phrases from TV or some work settings, but it takes concerted effort to really absorb English (especially for adults). There are some people who can teach themselves languages from books, but that's not exactly for everyone! Intensive English classes aren't available in all areas, and they're often expensive; trying to fit in difficult classes while working at a low-rung sort of job is a difficult proposition, and doing so while while taking care of a family is harder yet. Computer programs like Rosetta Stone are also quite costly and require access to equipment that some poor immigrants simply don't have. There are some free programs like USA Learns, but they aren't terribly in-depth and the issue of equipment access still remains (trying to carve out computer time at a public library can be well-nigh impossible depending on where you live).

An example: my great-grandmother emigrated from Italy, coming to the U.S. by way of Canada because of the anti-Italian immigration laws in place. She worked as an indentured servant during her time in Canada, then raised eight children while her husband worked in a coal mine. She never learned much English; her primary languages were Italian and some Quebecois French. However, she was a patriotic American who made sure her children learned English well. Her sons served honorably in World War II; one died. It was no insult to any other American that she had no time or energy to spare to learn English. It didn't make her a better or worse American; it simply made her a person who spent much of her life poor and worked hard to give her children better opportunities in a new country.

My overall point is that it is easy to overlook the difficulties of life as a non-English-speaking immigrant. Sometimes we judge without truly reflecting on those difficulties.

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · May 11, 2010

I live in an area, with many emigrants. Interestingly, many of them moved here to marry locals, and spend large amounts of time either working in stores among their own nationality group/culture or raising their very large families. They limit their time spent outside their cultural group. How is it that they learn English quickly and the vast majority speak relatively good English in a short period of time, even though they spend little time among "outsiders"?

Many of the Orthodox Jewish brides come from their homes, go straight in to having babies, and caring for the home...a lifestyle that isolates them from the mainstream, from commercial TV and english books. They rarely leave the home except to interact with other Orthodox. Yet they still, somehow learn English. Despite there being plenty of MDs in the area that can speak their languages (Yiddish, Hebrew, Russian, Polish, etc.), they do not rely on that and speak adequate English in clinic/hospital. This despite the fact that they really aren't going to completely assimulate due to religious belief.

Yet, many Spanish speaking emigrants, that have substantially more exposure to English at large, will not learn English.

Sorry, I don't buy the "I don't have time/exposure to learn English" excuse.

resumecpr · May 11, 2010

It is frustrating to me when my patient doesn't understand my language and I can't understand them. At times I'm sure we both feel helpless. I have always managed to make it through the shift, with or without the help of a translator. My beef where I work now is that we do not have 24 hour translators in house, to assist in emergency situations etc. Whether we like it or not, the US houses the most immigrants of any country, and for some strange reason, I feel like it would be to my benefit to learn another language like spanish, so I can feel more confident in the care I provide me spanish speaking only patient. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em right?

Orange Tree · May 11, 2010

i don't get frustrated w/those who are confused, demented, etc.
i suppose it's r/t me being able to understand that they're confused, demented, etc.
but when language is completely non-intelligible, you haven't a clue as to the why, what, who, when, where.
curious, this country you lived in, was english enabled as spanish is here in this country?
was all communication (written and spoken) in english as well as the native tongue?
iow, did this country cater to americans as we do for spanish?
finally, it's unfortunate you see us as "ugly americans".
*shrug*
diversity isn't only ethnic in nature...
it takes all kinds.
leslie

I lived in Germany for a few years as a teenager because my father was in the air force. People were very accommodating and would speak English to me even when I attempted to speak German to them (I was never very good at it). I could also go to German movie theaters and watch movies in English- it was nice :) I traveled around in Europe a lot while I was living there, and I went there a lot on vacation for several years after I returned home to Texas. I was always impressed that the Germans spoke French and the Dutch spoke Spanish etc. And sometimes, you could even use French money in a German restaurant. I guess it just taught me a different way to think. Before living there, I was very anti-everything that wasn't MY WAY and thought everybody should get out of MY COUNTY. I guess I'm a little strange....because I am getting less conservative as I age instead of more conservative. I might even be turning into some sort of hippie.

rn/writer, RN · May 11, 2010

Now I see the "English-only" ranters as "ugly Americans".

Why is it ugly to want people who want to live here to learn to speak basic English in addition to their mother tongue?

Polyglotism is here to stay as frustrating as it is.

Shouldn't that go both ways? If we need to accept the presence of more than one language, why aren't immigrants being told the same thing?

Why is it that Americans are annoyed by the fact that many people who were not born here don't speak English all the time. It's not like America own the English language. Why can't Americans invent their own language and call it American.

Why is it that in controversial subjects people automatically rush to the extremes? We don't have to insist on "English only" or English all the time or go cold turkey in providing assistance. I do think we should start scaling back on some of the tremendous amount of accommodation that amounts to enabling, and we should push for immigrants of all nations to learn English if they intend to stay here. No need to quash their native tongues. Where's the sense in that? But we should strongly promote English speaking, especially among those under the age of 25 and those who are second-generation and beyond.

Immigrants who came here prior to the 1970s learned English primarily by immersion. The kids learned in school and the parents learned from their kids. Yeah, it was tough at first, but acquiring the language was seen as a vehicle for success, there were no easy outs, and failure was not an option. Of course, there were older folks who wouldn't or couldn't make the transition, but they still pushed their children and grandchildren to learn and were proud of them for doing so.

Now we encourage non-English speakers to see themselves as victims who need to be catered to and to view being asked to learn the language as a form of discrimination. We make NOT speaking English far too easy amd acceptable.

My overall point is that it is easy to overlook the difficulties of life as a non-English-speaking immigrant. Sometimes we judge without truly reflecting on those difficulties.

If there were not generations of immigrants who had it as tough, if not tougher than, the current groups have it, I would agree. But millions of people came here without a word of English and they learned enough to function in everyday life. They worked long hours and lived in cramped conditions with very little money, but they saw the ability to speak English as an essential tool for building a better life. They wanted their kids to speak English in school. They formed clubs and classes to practice their speech and improve their skills. They listened to the radio and read the newspaper to become more fluent. Speaking English was viewed as a means to an end, a responsibility, and a privilege, not an onerous burden and an imposition. This change in attitude has not been beneficial to the immigrant communities or to the country as a whole.

The earlier immigrants understood that, along with the ability to survive and thrive, sharing a common language creates a sense of connection. They still had the language and customs of their homeland to stay close to their fellow immigrants, but many, if not most, assimilated into this culture and urged their offspring to do so, as well.

We can respect other cultures and still ask that people who intend to live in this country learn to speak the language well enough to manage daily life. Even the use of interpreters or the Language Line works better if the person speaks some English. To keep enabling the avoidance of learning English endangers everyone.

We usually only talk about the trauma and frustration for the non-English speaking person when communication is hamstrung in the health care setting, but I'll bet I speak for many others when I say that it's traumatic and frustrating on our end as well. It can be exhausting to spend an entire shift straining to communicate and worrying that you will miss some important detail because of the language barrier.

The biggest change--and the most harmful one I see--is this shift in viewing learning the English language as an attack on race or ethnicity rather than a sensible step toward living in an English-speaking country. (The UK, Canada, and other countries share this same struggle.)

allnurses Guide · May 11, 2010

QUOTE=CamaroNurse;4292814]. . . Now, granted, the Amish aren't exactly frequent fliers at hospitals, but they go there if needed

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:):):):):) That does make me smile, my in-laws are from that area, too, and if there are any more resourceful people around, I've not heard of them. They will be the ones who, if they chose to, would invent a whole new way of teaching foreign languages twice as fast as everyone else.

QUOTE=Orange Tree;4292903]People who don't speak English don't bother me at all. I used to be one of "those" people who were very agressive towards non-English speakers ...until I lived in a foreign country myself! People seem to have very different attitudes about foreign languages in other parts of the world, and I guess it rubbed off on me a bit. Now I see the "English-only" ranters as "ugly Americans". :chair:

Wanting people who chose to live and work here in the US to have every possible tool at their disposal to grow, advance and take root in our society is not "ugly". Patting people on the head and telling them, "it's OK, it's too hard and costs too much, don't worry about it" assures both existence and stagnation.

Most of the people surrounding me in my work environment speak Spanish as their first (and usually only) language. I've had lots of opportunity to reflect on their difficulties, as well as observe how they are able to navigate through life in the US even with everything the average person needs to function in day to day life here available in Spanish. Without getting into a lot of long stories, I'll just say that we are blessed to live in a place where you can have nothing, and should you choose, build a little more, and a little more and a little more for yourself and your kids.

If you take a pass, you might end up with a metastatic breast cancer and have to carry around a letter from your doctor written in English (that you can't read) in your purse before you can travel anywhere in the United States that isn't an insular Spanish-only neighborhood. I'm not a ranter or a hater. I just see stuff happen. I wonder sometimes if people aren't mistaking true compassion for a paternalistic viewpoint that is more about themselves having a glowing halo than it is for what's best for the other person.

Orange Tree · May 11, 2010

.
Wanting people who chose to live and work here in the US to have every possible tool at their disposal to grow, advance and take root in our society is not "ugly". Patting people on the head and telling them, "it's OK, it's too hard and costs too much, don't worry about it" assures both existence and stagnation.

Well, that's a new angle....I've never heard it expressed as a concern about growth and development before. I'm not even sure what to say....so I'll just say that I have a pet turtle and his name is Crumb.

tablefor9, RN · May 11, 2010

You know, I get irritated at the *idea* of people being here for years and years and "not knowing" English. Of course, if you want to live here as a citizen, you should pay the taxes, speak the language, and pick a baseball team...the whole enchilada (pun intended). And, yet, I rarely find myself getting frustrated at a patient...no matter how long I think they might have lived here.

Why? I think it's because I can usually keep in view the thought that I never know the whole story. Maybe it really is a time issue. Maybe they speak some English, but are too proud to speak it, because it isn't very good and my Spanish allows them to get by without using it. Maybe (it's the women I see, primarily, who don't speak it, usually the Dads speak English fine) they are isolated being SAHMs and don't really get out of their circle of friends. And, just maybe, more and more, they are afraid to seek services because of immigration/enforcement issues. I'm seeing many more moms with no prenatal care/medicaid/etc because they don't want anything from our government, only the ability to stay here.

I just don't think it's as easy as it looks, always. I'm *more* frustrated by the folks born here who have an entitlement mentality. This country was built on the ideal of an opportunity that is the same as anyone else's, not a promise of an outcome the same as anyone else's.

:twocents: