Support Planned Parenthood Today! - page 13

I see in the news that anti-choice organizations are planning demonstrations today at Planned Parenthood facilities around the US to support GOP plans to defund PP. Of course, my first thought... Read More

  1. by   offlabel
    Quote from heron
    Ask those men. Better yet, ask Tim Murphy and Scott DesJarlais - both self-styled pro-life legislators who weren't so much when their mistresses got pregnant.

    Meanwhile, I don't get your point. Your examples only support the proposition that no one has the right to force a woman's conscience or her reproductive decisions.
    But "choice" is selectively applied, isn't it? Women are coerced into abortions every day, yet there is silence on that issue from the prochoice side. That is what really dings the credibility of PP and others like it. It makes it look as though they're willing to allow this abuse of women for the greater cause of abortion rights. It looks very bad.

    As to the two 'pro-life' politicians...so the hypocrisy is bad or the "mistresses" having abortions was bad? I say both. What do you say?
  2. by   heron
    Quote from offlabel
    Who is leaving real vulnerable children twisting in the wind that is opposed to abortion? Is that a requirement? If I'm against nuclear war but don't make sure I also state very clearly that I'm against global climate change as well, I'm not allowed to be against nuclear weapons? See, the logic just doesn't follow.

    Just for the record, I'm not in favor at all of making religious arguments, not because I don't think they're valid but because they are not universally resonant. My objection to abortion is based on, among other things, the disproportionate African American and Hispanic distribution. Poverty is bad. Crime is bad. Not having a stable home life is bad. Child abuse is bad. The suggestion that aborting wide swaths of a demographic to deal with those things does not make logical sense at best and is genocidal at worst.

    My objection is based on the idea that I think some things are objectively bad and require addressing. Climate change, racism, bigotry, you name it. I know for a fact that no one I know who supports a woman's right to an abortion would consider themselves a racist. But the unintended consequence of their position places Black and Hispanics at particular risk for abortion. And that is racism.
    Your first paragraph makes no sense at all. No one is claiming that abortion prevents cruelty to children. What we are pointing out is the hypocrisy of crusading for fetal rights and at the same time allowing such conditions to persist. The difference between pro-life and forced pregnancy is precisely this: forced pregnancy advocates’ reverence for life ends at birth.

    The rest of your post is a rehash of forced pregnancy propaganda that conveniently ignores the fact that being able to control the timing and rate of her reproduction enhances a woman’s potential socio-economic advancement. It’s economic inequality and lack of social support for minority and low income children that is racist.

    Frankly, if you’re so concerned about reproductive racism, you should be cheering organizations like PP, who provide low-cost contraception which has been proven to reduce the rate of abortions. But, we all know that isn’t the point at all. The forced pregnancy movement has been campaigning against birth control far longer than it’s been concerned with abortion.

    You also seem seem to be dancing around the accusation that forced abortion is a feature of PP’s programs. I’ll believe that when I see the data. Forced abortions are just as vile as forced pregnancy. I believe that it occurs. I don’t believe that it is a strategy of abortion providers or reproductive rights advocates. More likely a strategy of men afraid of being held financially responsible for children they don’t want. Or they’re afraid of their spurious “family values” being outed as self-serving lies like the legislators named in a previous post.

    ETA: to answer your question, the legislators in question are hypocrites. Whether their mistresses carry to term or have abortions is between them and their conscience. That is what determines whether they are “good” or “bad”.
    Last edit by heron on Oct 17
  3. by   elkpark
    Quote from offlabel
    But "choice" is selectively applied, isn't it? Women are coerced into abortions every day, yet there is silence on that issue from the prochoice side. That is what really dings the credibility of PP and others like it. It makes it look as though they're willing to allow this abuse of women for the greater cause of abortion rights. It looks very bad.

    As to the two 'pro-life' politicians...so the hypocrisy is bad or the "mistresses" having abortions was bad? I say both. What do you say?
    I've never encountered any pro-choice person who supported the idea of women being coerced into having abortions against their will, or who is "willing to allow this abuse of women for the greater cause of abortion rights." Or, for that matter, even encouraged a woman who was ambivalent about her decision to proceed. That's kinda the point of the "choice" part of "pro-choice" -- women making their own decisions that are right for them. If you have some actual evidence/documentation that this is "happening every day," please feel free to share it (especially if it's not from a right-wing anti-choice source ...) If women are in relationships in which the men are forcing or coercing them into doing things they don't want to do, that's a whole different issue.
    Last edit by elkpark on Oct 18
  4. by   Lil Nel
    Quote from offlabel
    Not sure of the logic here. It sounds as though you're associating brutal child abuse and murder (both bad things) with the abused and murdered children not having been aborted. But abortion has been legal since 1973 and people still murder children. I'd even dare to say that more children are murdered today than in 1972. No data to back that claim up, but it wouldn't surprise me.

    So what you're saying is that if children aren't aborted, they'll be murdered?
    What I am saying, and what I have been saying for several posts is that living children in this country aren't valued. Many people don't want children. And when laws are enacted that make it harder for women to have an elective abortion, and they are therefore essentially forced to bear children, abuse is the result in many, cases. And that abuse can be physical and emotional.

    Your statement implies that abortion is readily available across the country. That simply isn't true. The state in which I live, for example, has only one remaining abortion facility, and the governor is attempting to do all that he can shut it down.

    Your statement implies that states haven't implemented road blocks to abortion such as waiting periods, which can deter many women.

    When women are shamed into bearing unwanted children, those children are more likely to abused.

    Of course children will continue to be murdered as there are many unwell people in this world. But when a child is clearly unwanted, it is far more likely to be abused.

    That is all that I am saying.
  5. by   Lil Nel
    I also know of NO pro-choice organization that supports women being forced to have abortions. Obviously, I am pro-choice and I don't support the idea of coercing women to do something they want to do.

    The two women I have known who had abortions weren't forced to do so. It was their choice.

    The racism argument is one I have heard before made by the anti-choice side. Nothing new there.

    If a partner is forcing a woman to have an abortion, there are clearly big problems going on, including most likely physical abuse of the woman. Perhaps she is pregnant because she was raped by her partner. That woman is clearly in an abusive relationship and needs to help to free herself from the situation.
  6. by   morte
    Quote from offlabel
    OK. Fair enough, but that doesn't seem to matter to the boyfriends or parents of women that do not want to have an abortion and want desperately to keep their child. Women are brought to abortion clinics against their will and coerced into the procedure.

    So if it's none of anyone's business, why can girls be threatened with violence and abandonment if they won't go along?
    cite these cases, immediately.
  7. by   Lil Nel
    Well, here is an example from today's Washington Post of an undocumented immigrant being DENIED her constitutional right to an abortion. A federal judge has over-ruled the Trump administration in this case. Please notice the last paragraph which states that the teenager was coerced into going to a Christian pregnancy center by federal workers.

    So, it is an example of a teenager being coerced into continuing a pregnancy, which I believe is probably more than the norm, than the other way around.


    Chutkan countered that the teenager does not need a medical emergency to exercise her right to an abortion. She said the girl had followed state and federal rules: She obtained permission from a state judge in Texas to have an abortion and would cover the expenses herself or with help through her court-appointed guardian.
    All the government had to do, the judge said, is process the paperwork to let the girl visit the clinic, just as they would if she needed to have her tonsils removed.

    Stewart said the girl could also voluntarily leave the United States and find another way to have an abortion, and said the girl had chosen to remain in federal custody instead of returning home.
    That claim appeared to irk the judge, who pointed out that the federal workers took the girl, against her wishes, to a Christian pregnancy facility for counseling and also informed her mother about the abortion. Both steps potentially violated the girl's constitutional right to privacy and other protections, Chutkan said.
  8. by   elkpark
    Quote from Lil Nel
    Well, here is an example from today's Washington Post of an undocumented immigrant being DENIED her constitutional right to an abortion. A federal judge has over-ruled the Trump administration in this case. Please notice the last paragraph which states that the teenager was coerced into going to a Christian pregnancy center by federal workers.

    So, it is an example of a teenager being coerced into continuing a pregnancy, which I believe is probably more than the norm, than the other way around.
    Lots of us have argued for years that, by refusing to fund abortions but providing state funding (Medicaid) for prenatal care and delivery, states are routinely coercing poor women into having children that they would not necessarily choose to have.
  9. by   Tenebrae
    Quote from Kooky Korky
    Where you were at the time of Nia's torture is of no consequence. You knew about it and did nothing,
    no i didnt know about it until after it happened and the case went to trial and was published in the media

    Had I known about it at the time, you can be assured I would have done something about it before it ended in disaster. I have acted multiple times in the cases that I have known about and been more than slightly privileged to help make a difference for these kids.


    just as you know about the other dozens, scores, hundreds, and thousands of children who are currently being starved, beaten, tortured today all over the world, yet you do nothing.
    Pretty arrogant assumption to assume you know what I do or dont do to help vulnerable children. Fortunately I'm a nurse, not a millionaire so I dont get to do as much as I would like to.

    In the interests of living up to
    Mathew 4: 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 5And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward.…
    what I do is none of your business.

    .
    Distance and ignorance of them and having any other commitments are not excuses. That's what you told me. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. So get busy.
    Never said any such thing. And like I said, to assume what I do or dont do is pretty damm arrogant

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