Conscience Schmoncience! Who cares what you believe?

Nurses Activism

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Not sure where this goes on allnurses. But since everyone has their own core beliefs that inform their nursing practice, I thought it would be interesting to more than just the political junkies.

Obama's Grave Assault on Medical Conscience Rights

by Kristan Hawkins

05/21/2011

Quote
During the past two years, Americans have seen the expansion of the federal government into sectors of their economy and personal life as never before. And earlier this year, the Obama administration quietly moved into a new area of American life, one of its most intimate, the patient-doctor relationship.

Like the Obama takeovers of the automobile industry, the banking industry and then the health care industry, the new conscience-rights assault is the administration's latest attempt to fundamentally change our nation as we know it.

In February, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) announced the rescission of most of the Bush administration’s 2008 conscience protections, removing the rights of doctors, pharmacists and other medical professionals to object to prescribing or dispensing known abortifacient drugs such as Plan B and ella. This rescission sends a clear signal to medical professionals nationwide—leave your conscience at the door, and if you morally object to a medical procedure or medication, then you should be in another business.

When Students for Life, Medical Students for Life and other pro-life medical groups wrote to HHS about the rescission, the agency defended its decision and cited the federal definition of abortion, arguing that abortion-causing drugs such as Plan B and ella are not covered under the definition of abortion, and therefore doctors do not have the right to refuse to prescribe or dispense these dangerous drugs.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=43627

Unless she can abort her own baby, there's a third (4th, 5th etc.) person involved. If Plan B were OTC, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

Currently medical professionals are legally welcome to opt out of participating in abortions. And Plan B is OTC- it is kept behind the pharmacy counter but is available without a prescription. The pharmacist still has to hand it to you.

Do you believe that abortion will be the ONLY area in which HHS will want to dictate to health care professionals.

There are mumblings about providing rural health care by telling PMP's where they have to practice.

I'll believe that when I see it. Til then this is just speculation about what the big bad government is going to do with our freedoms.

Where do you draw the line with regard to government power over personal freedom?

*I* don't draw anything as an individual. But as an individual I do benefit from society, from public schools, from public health initiatives, from cultural space like parks and museums and open-air Shakespeare performances, from law and order, from roads and snow plowing. But this is starting to veer well beyond the topic of the thread. Frankly, I'm not really interested in debating theories of government. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt, and went in to nursing because I wanted to actually make a difference in people's lives, not just engage in battles of rhetoric.

I was 17 years old when I went to fill my birth control prescription for the first time at the pharmacy next to my religious college campus. I won't go into details, but the religiously and judgmentally motivated nature of the conversation with the pharmacist left me feeling awful and doubting myself. The birth control was to control my periods and at that time, wasn't even being used as a contraceptive! And though it WAS dispensed, I was strongly encouraged against taking the medication my doctor prescribed.

Two years later, I went to the same pharmacy to purchase a morning after pill. Received the same attitude and treatment as before, from a different pharmacist. If that pharmacist had refused to fill the prescription, I would've gone home and cried, and not even attempted to go to a different pharmacy...I like to think of myself as a strong person, but being humiliated while already vulnerable can be devastating. We should not underestimate the effect that refusal to dispense could have...

So yeah, I'm of the mind that if you aren't able to put your feelings aside to dispense necessary medications, maybe you shouldn't work in a drugstore...and in these situations, someone has to protect the patients.

If this were a Muslim Dr. refusing to perform these procedures, or dispense the drug would we have the same discussions. I do not mean that to be critical of Muslims, my point is to a large degree (though not exclusively) this is a Chrsitian issue. While many people and religions oppose abortion, in general we give less issues we identify as Christian since we are so afraid to not be PC. I have seem similar discussions on a different subject. People seem to be much more tolerant of the modesty wishes of Muslim's based on there religous beliefs than they do for the general patient population. While it can be argued this is not a issue of religion, I think by an large it is. So, I would ask again, if this were a person of Muslim faith, would you say force them to do it or the need to leave the profession, Ok, if not, don't see how you can pick and choose who you will and won't force to violate their beliefs.

a few years ago here in Ct a pharmacists refused to dispense the morning after pill, when the girl went back to the doctor, and her mom went with her it turned out she had been raped and she brought in her police report to prove it. Why should someone go to these lengths to get what is needed?? (and by the way he ended up getting fired)

Are pharmacists going to start denying men Viagra??

No then **** and do your God damn job, don't like it find a position where you will not have your delicate sensibilities trampled on.

As a woman who herself needed to take birth control due to irregular periods, and had to fight the catholic organization that controlled our health insurance I would NEVER make it my business to tell my patients half the truth or to deny them their needed care, that isn't our jobs, those aren't part of the 'vows' we take as nurses or as doctors, if you can't live up to them then do the world a favor and go work for organizations that believe as you do and stop pestering the rest of us with YOUR views.

Thank you very much

Specializes in Geriatrics, Home Health.

I'm all for contraceptive and abortion rights, but I don't think the government should force any doctor or pharmacist to prescribe or dispense anything. I'm more of a fan of full disclosure: let patients know up front what you do and don't offer, and mandate referrals. Let medical practices decide what procedures and medications their pracitioners are required to perform.

What is the impact of the "conscience clause" beyond abortion? What about pediatricians who don't believe in vaccinations? Will they be forced to give vaccinations?

A pharmacy in my area does not sell cigarettes, pseudoephedrine, or name-brand narcotics (not sure about generics). A large sign on the door explains it all. Should they be forced to sell them?

The urgent-care clinics in my area do not prescribe narcotics. Should they be forced to? What about the ER?

Specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical.

do you think it should be illegal for doctors to ask about guns in the home?

florida bill would prohibit doctors from asking patients about their guns - foxnews.com

edited to remove double posting

Again... where do you draw the line between government power and personal freedom.

If a medication is legal but the government tells medical professionals that they can all refuse to give it to me, how is that personal freedom? Seems like it is government power standing in the way of personal freedom.

Why does the personal freedom of a medical professional trump the freedom of a patient?

Also, the medical professional can be morally against the Plan B pill if they want to be- it is not them who will be taking the pill. Why can't people let their religious beliefs dictate their own behavior without worrying about everybody else's?

I think it is telling that those who are anti-conscience, almost exclusively personalize the argument.

If I had crippling endometriosis and took BCP's so I could walk upright (even if I couldn't get them at the first pharmacy I went into) should I expect you to care?

If really bad, life-altering things happened to me in high school, do I get to set policies to hamstring teachers and round up bad kids?

If my parents didn't have money and I had to give the government three solid years of my life to go to college... should that mean your kids have to do the same to get ahead?

Nothing about my life should constrain your choices. (I may or may not be pro-choice, but I am pro-liberty.)

But you're right.. Tell you what... here's what we'll do to fix things so it works for you.

It's really tacky to have pharmacists with silly moral misgivings. So, we make law that the government checks out all the applicants to pharmacy schools in America. You know... before we waste resources on them. We just weed out the ones with the wrong beliefs, suspicious church memberships, history of contributions to the wrong causes... that sort of thing. Nip it in the bud. Don't give them educational loans. Country can't afford that anymore.

Ah, BUT, there is always the risk that some moralists will slip through the cracks. They might get jobs in and around pharmacies where they'll give women (who are exercising their reproductive rights) dirty, disapproving looks. We can't have that. So, we'll find out who the fundamentalists are in advance. The government will make them wear little badges so health care institutions will know not to employ them. Christians will have to wear a cross. Muslims a crescent. And Jews a little yellow star of david. (I don't know what the libertarians will have to wear. Maybe we'll just put them in ghettos and not let them out.)

Because... like you, I believe the government exists to make sure I am never sad, or uncomfortable or inconvenienced.

Plan B is NOT AN ABORTION PILL. It is administered before implantation. If taken after, it will not prevent pregnancy.

Plan B is NOT AN ABORTION PILL. It is administered before implantation. If taken after, it will not prevent pregnancy.

If it did cause the embryo to undergo apoptosis (in other words, suppose its mechanism of action was on the embryo and not the endometrium) do you think doctors/pharmacists could refuse on moral grounds to prescribe/fill it?

My guess is that you would still want them to be forced to participate in order to keep their jobs and/or licenses to practice.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I'm all for contraceptive and abortion rights, but I don't think the government should force any doctor or pharmacist to prescribe or dispense anything.

*** The government isn't forcing anything. Those people went way out of their way and worked hard to get into their CHOSEN field. They had the oppertunity to never have to dispence Plan-B or oral contraceptives but they deliberatly chose to work in a field where it would be expected of them. There ar plenty of pharm and physician jobs where they will never have to face the issue.

To me this is exactly like a person with strong religious beliefes about pork going to work in a BBQ restaurant and complaining that handeling pork offends their religion.

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