Pt's FB pictures of me

Nurses HIPAA

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You are reading page 4 of Pt's FB pictures of me

Mulan

2,228 Posts

I brought up movie stars because the poster sated that she does extra in movies. We are photoed and video tapped ALL the time in public. Privacy is a misnomer. Of course that friend of the other poster had a right to state do not take my picture but as far as it being a LEGAL "right" to refuse sure she did...just as the patients husband had the right to not comply in the parking lot. Is it legal to take photos of people without asking? | PhotoRights.org

I am not a lawyer. This is my understanding of the law.

As far as the policy of her program....they can do whatever they like. I know of someone dismissed from a program for the same sitation.....3 weeks from the end of her last semester.

I am the author of both posts. I repeat, she was not in the parking lot. Maybe I should clarify, she was wheeling the patient out for discharge, this starts at the patient room, through the halls, to the elevators, through halls and lobbies to an exit. It does not involve a parking lot.

ixchel

4,547 Posts

Specializes in critical care.

Esme, I agree that the moment belongs to the mother completely. And OMG 11 months apart! Wow!

I also agree that the student and her father are not public figures and it's reasonable to be annoyed that pics of them without the baby were posted publicly on Facebook. I think it would be different if posted on the friends setting so that the world wouldn't see, but it wasn't. If the baby was in me, that would be different, too, but the OP said with and without the baby. That would bother me.

I don't think it is appropriate to look patients up on Facebook. In my program, we've been told we will be dismissed if we take anything with the patient's name out of the hospital, even if it says nothing else. I don't know if simply looking a person up on the internet would be the same kind of violation, but it seems close. As a patient, I would feel uncomfortable with a nurse, or student, I had contacted me through social media. If you had had a conversation asking for the photos while she was in your care, that would probably be a little different, but it sounds like that didn't happen.

Another thing that bothers me - in what capacity did you assist in the birth? Please be sure you did not step outside your scope of practice as a student. Even if the doctor in the room was your dad, you have an obligation to your program (whether you were there in an official capacity with your program or not) to stay within your scope at all times. Your behavior reflects on your school, no matter who the attending physician was.

ixchel

4,547 Posts

Specializes in critical care.
1. Again I have no intentions of posting to social media. 2. My #1 (and honestly only) idea about trying to legitimately contact this person: have my dad ask her about it at her 6 wk follow up. He said he would do that for me. 3. Why do I want this picture? Well, it's my first (of hopefully many) "deliveries." I don't see it as any creepier than wanting to have a picture of my child with his teacher on the first day of preschool. 4. I was a nursing student, there with school. This was the patient assigned to me by school. My father, my preceptor, and I were in there. I'm not sure what is being implied as far as my "helping" goes. I'm sorry to have caused such a heated discussion. The world of Facebook and publishing private pictures is relatively new in the medical world. I was obviously unsure of this situation, and thought I would ask for some insight. I guess I learned my lesson.[/quote']

Asking at the 6-week check up is a brilliant idea. Leave Facebook out of the conversation.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN

1 Article; 20,908 Posts

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
I am the author of both posts. I repeat, she was not in the parking lot. Maybe I should clarify, she was wheeling the patient out for discharge, this starts at the patient room, through the halls, to the elevators, through halls and lobbies to an exit. It does not involve a parking lot.

I stand corrected....

highly irate when her picture was taken wheeling someone out to the car, she made it known to the father that he had no business taking pictures of her without her permission.
but the father can still take the picture if it is not against hospital policy.
Is it legal to take photos of people without asking?

In public places where there is no right to privacy, yes you can. The same applies in private places where you have the permission of the landowner or the landowner has stated no restrictions on photography. However photographing someone without asking their permission can cause a lot of trouble if not handled sensitively. If someone does not want to be photographed it is best to respect their wishes unless there is an overriding reason not to. Most people in most circumstances respond well to friendly explanation, especially if you show them the photo. Nevertheless some will object that you have violated their rights in some interesting way, and it's best to have the explanations ready.

  • 'You can't take my photo without permission'. Oh yes you can, usually. Point to the CCTV cameras and wave, they never asked either. Of course it is perfectly understandable that individuals may feel singled out and perhaps intimidated, frightened or angry not to be in control, but it's not a legal point.
  • 'You have violated my copyright'. This is in no sense true. There is no copyright in the human face or form, and copying would anyway mean cloning them, not creating an image. An image of a person is copyright of the photographer.
  • 'You have violated my privacy'. Legally this is unlikely to be true. There is no right to privacy in public places as a rule. There is a right to privacy in private places and in public places where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy (eg public toilets), but how extensive this is depends on circumstances.
    In private places that are open to the public, permission of the landowner is usually sufficient to be able to photograph visitors and staff. However a recent court case upheld a right to eat a meal in a restaurant in privacy even though the restaurant owner had consented to the photography, because in the court's view it was a customer's normal expectation not to be photographed there. If in doubt, this is probably the question to ask yourself.
  • 'You have violated my human rights'. Police seem to sometimes object to being photographed on the grounds that their 'Human Rights' are being violated. This really means the same thing as 'privacy' and there is none in the street as the presence of CCTV and police photographers shows.

  • The Human Rights Act 1998 recognizes a human right to expect privacy wherever privacy is normal, eg in the home. So photographs taken where privacy may be expected require permission of the subject. EG photographs taken from public places that depict someone within their home in a situation where they expect privacy, for instance through a window using a telephoto lens, will be actionable.
  • 'You are harassing me'. Photography can indeed constitute harassment, but for an act to constitute harassment requires deliberate acts of harassment on at least 2 separate occasions. The complainant may then seek a restraining order from the court.
    Harassment is potentially an issue for paparazzi in their pursuit of celebrities, but equally a restraining order has been used to suppress inconvenient photography by npower at Radley lakes.
  • 'You need a model release'. Model releases are not necessary for anything except photographs to be used for commercial purposes. For editorial or artistic purposes they have no relevance unless you intend defaming the subject and need them to make a contractual agreement not to sue you for libel. If you intend selling the image for marketing or advertising use that implies endorsement by the subject, then yes, you need a model release (or rather, the advertiser does).

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN

1 Article; 20,908 Posts

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
1. Again, I have no intentions of posting to social media.

2. My #1 (and honestly only) idea about trying to legitimately contact this person: have my dad ask her about it at her 6 wk follow up. He said he would do that for me.

3. Why do I want this picture? Well, it's my first (of hopefully many) "deliveries." I don't see it as any creepier than wanting to have a picture of my child with his teacher on the first day of preschool.

4. I was a nursing student, there with school. This was the patient assigned to me by school. My father, my preceptor, and I were in there. I'm not sure what is being implied as far as my "helping" goes.

I'm sorry to have caused such a heated discussion. The world of Facebook and publishing private pictures is relatively new in the medical world. I was obviously unsure of this situation, and thought I would ask for some insight. I guess I learned my lesson.

You should never shy away from controversy. It is good to debate and gain experience AND KNOWLEDGE. It is a lively discussion...nurses are very vocal and we have no trouble saying our piece of mind.. It's what makes us good nurses.

Here is my issue...while it may be you are excited at your first experience.... it is your patients delivery and experience...not yours. It's about the patient...not you very simple. Your enthusiasm is admirable and your goals obtainable and special...however, your school may have a completely different view of this altogether. I would HATE for you to get in trouble for this for their decision will be final.

Clearly this is a subject of debate and the regulations/rules, especially involving patients, are NOT CLEAR. Do you want to be the example for the school for what NOT to do? Is it worth the risk to possibly be in trouble with your program? Only you can decide. Nursing programs are very strict about this sort of thing and while you are there in a student capacity, representing the school...you are obliged to abide by the schools rules and regulations.

I just want you to consider the possible ramifications of your actions.

Praemonitus praemunitus or forewarned is forearmed

psu_213, BSN, RN

3,878 Posts

Specializes in Emergency, Telemetry, Transplant.

4. I was a nursing student, there with school. This was the patient assigned to me by school. My father, my preceptor, and I were in there. I'm not sure what is being implied as far as my "helping" goes.

Well, I'm glad that you were there with school and not on you own. Helping can be a vague term and I did not know what you meant: there with school or there to tag along with your dad because he thought it would be a good experience for you? Obviously the former. Observing or helping by passing instruments, drying the baby, etc.? (Ok, I really don't know all that much about what goes on in a delivery room.) Whatever the case, just make sure you do only what you school allows...even if you father is "in charge" of the room.

As for the original question, the fact that you were there for school makes it clear. Don't approach this person for the photos...and I would even say not to have your dad bring up the subject with the pt at her f/u appointment. You don't want any sort of an appearance of invading this person's privacy. You don't even want a suggestion that you misused social media. As Esme said, you don't want to be the example of what no to do when your school talks about social media and/or privacy in future terms. I understand why you want pictures, but, for this one, you may just have to let it go.

rse3

44 Posts

Well, I'm glad that you were there with school and not on you own. Helping can be a vague term and I did not know what you meant: there with school or there to tag along with your dad because he thought it would be a good experience for you? Obviously the former. Observing or helping by passing instruments, drying the baby, etc.? (Ok, I really don't know all that much about what goes on in a delivery room.) Whatever the case, just make sure you do only what you school allows...even if you father is "in charge" of the room.

As for the original question, the fact that you were there for school makes it clear. Don't approach this person for the photos...and I would even say not to have your dad bring up the subject with the pt at her f/u appointment. You don't want any sort of an appearance of invading this person's privacy. You don't even want a suggestion that you misused social media. As Esme said, you don't want to be the example of what no to do when your school talks about social media and/or privacy in future terms. I understand why you want pictures, but, for this one, you may just have to let it go.

As a student, am I only supposed to be observing and minimally involved? I was told the opposite by my clinical instructor, the director of the program, etc. Perhaps I've been given erroneous information by my school?

psu_213, BSN, RN

3,878 Posts

Specializes in Emergency, Telemetry, Transplant.
As a student, am I only supposed to be observing and minimally involved? I was told the opposite by my clinical instructor, the director of the program, etc. Perhaps I've been given erroneous information by my school?

I have no idea what the policy is of either your school or the facility. Whatever those policies are, you need to follow them to the letter of the law, even if you father is the physician in charge in the room.

An unrelated example--my facility's policy specifically does not allow students to start IVs. Therefore, a student assigned to me does not start an IV. I disagree with the policy, but even if it were the CNO's child who was said student, they would not be starting an IV on my watch.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN

1 Article; 20,908 Posts

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
As a student, am I only supposed to be observing and minimally involved? I was told the opposite by my clinical instructor, the director of the program, etc. Perhaps I've been given erroneous information by my school?
You are there to learn...of course you can do what is allowed by staff. I am just concerned about your schools social media policy. You were there as a student representing the school. They will hold you to their rules. If it was any other student asking a physician to ask a patient for permission to download pictures. The school and the MD would deem this as unprofessional and out of line. Just because your Dad feels it is ok doesn't mean the school will. Just be thoughtful about the potential consequences of your actions.

MunoRN, RN

8,058 Posts

Specializes in Critical Care.
My hospital has a policy which very clearly does not allow patients to take pictures of staff, the hospital interior, equipment, etc. It also states that security is to be called if said pictures are taken and they are then deleted in the presence of security.

A hospital can have a policy that requests someone delete photos, however this is essentially voluntary as Hospital staff cannot confiscate the device the the person refuses, they can only removed from the property and given a trespass warning.

Unless you're in the bathroom, changing room, etc Hospital staff do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy and therefore aren't protected by privacy laws, and the hospital interior, equipment, etc certainly has no privacy expectations.

allnurses Guide

BostonFNP, APRN

2 Articles; 5,581 Posts

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
With all due respect to all the people participating in this thread I think much ado is being made. As I said in a previous post, the picture of just the OP and her father that was made public on FB, to be used in a personal photo album, with no intention on the part of the OP to repost it to social media? No HIPAA violation, no patient identifiers, now public domain.[/quote']

If there were no identifiers please explain to me how the OP managed to find the photo.

dudette10, MSN, RN

3,530 Posts

Specializes in Med/Surg, Academics.
If there were no identifiers please explain to me how the OP managed to find the photo.

I meant no patient identifiers in the photo.

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