we've been having heated - but not yet angry - discussions - page 10

regarding the provision of medical services to undocumented residents - illegal aliens. As students, we've had the opportunity this semester to have clinical experiences that include being with... Read More

  1. by   mattsmom81
    Quote from wjf00
    Healthcare is expensive, but Nuclear weapons are expensive too. This nation has a very warped sense of priority.
    And whose nation is this anyways? Were not the native Americans over-run by a wave of illeagal immigrants. So now we are the legitimate caretakers to this land? So what makes this so, just because we have been here for a period of time. So then todays illegal alien is tommorrows leagal heir to the American dream.
    Healthcare is absoloutly a right for all within our borders, and if we have to cut back on our nuclear arsenal to pay for it , then so be it.
    America belongs to legal Americans. And I totally disagree with your line of thinking. My ancestors legally immigrated to this country and worked hard...today's illegal population are a whole 'nuther ballgame. I also resent those who come here from other countries, don't want to learn the language, but feel it is 'their right' to demand special status. And I see a whole lot of it in Texas.
  2. by   MryRose
    Quote from teeituptom
    we talk about the poor and the illegals not paying taxes

    no one mentions the huge Tax incentives and tax relief given to corporations to move to certain areas. Good ole boy Republican thinking again,

    We cant get anything out of the poor and the illegals
    so lets give these huge corporations that are rich beyond belief Rax relief and Tax incentives so they pay far less than they should.

    Personally, I think the entire system needs an overhaul. The problem is the rich are those that get into major public offices and they are controlled by the corporations. Legislators will never vote for a bill that will limit their control. The only time a bill for "the people" gets passed is when it is attached with a bunch of other bills that can slide on by without too much notice. If we only knew a quarter of the crap bills being passed "the people" would come uncorked. But they make it too difficult for the "common man" to understand and follow issues. However... that's another thread.

    Nobody here is talking about getting anything "out" of the poor or illegals.... there clearly is nothing to get and even if there was I would be against taking it. However, I feel that our country is drowning in debt and we have to put a cork in all the leaks and stop bringing in more mouths to feed.

    Legal immigration with sponsorship would work wonderfully. From what the "pro" illegal immigration folks say, there are thousands of people here who are working and paying there own way....... then let them sponsor another family to LEGALLY come here. Let them take on the burden of feeding and caring for them as they get on their feet.

    My family LEGALLY immigrated here generations ago and became part of the American melting pot without aid from the government. Nobody printed government forms or signs or anything else with their language..... they had to learn English in order to survive. I do not see that happening with the illegal aliens from Mexico.

    In California, just about EVERYTHING is printed in english and spanish.

    Our State had the best of everything...... our economy was booming, now it's going into the toilet. We have been "social serviced" to death.
  3. by   MryRose
    Quote from flowerchild
    In my area there are at least TEN FREE clinics. ANYONE, including illegals and natural born citizens can make an appointment to get care. There are another 15 or so clinics that take patients based on a sliding scale. Why is everyone crying that they can't get care? Even if you have insurance, you can still use the clinics. I know there are issues re care to non insured that may be different than someone with insurance esp in a hospital. But, even a hospital will give care needed, then set up payment plans, send the social worker, reduce the amount owed, etc.
    Perhaps other areas of the country do not have these clinics. I don't know why not. Most everywhere is a health dept.
    If you are one who needs care and can't get it by traditional methods then find a place you can go to. KNOW YOUR COMMUNITY RESOURCES, they are out there. If they are not there, do something about it. Where there is a will, there is a way.
    Hey that's how I paid for my first child..... payments.... lots of payments. We did without a LOT of things. We struggled to make sure we took care of our respsonsibilites. And that is exactly the point that makes a lot of us so angry.

    It is expected that one takes care of their THEIR OWN responsibilities. I had two children. That is all I could afford to have and take care of. I would have loved to have had more, but the RESPONSIBILITY was mine and I could not afford it.

    Illegals come here and have baby, after baby, after baby, etc. Where is the RESPONSIBILITY????

    Why am I paying for their children, food, medical and education when I can't even have more children myself???

    It's completely out of hand and it should be stopped.

    I DO NOT WANT TO SUPPORT ANY MORE ILLEGALS WITH MY MONEY.
  4. by   fergus51
    Quote from MryRose
    Nobody here is talking about getting anything "out" of the poor or illegals.... there clearly is nothing to get and even if there was I would be against taking it. However, I feel that our country is drowning in debt and we have to put a cork in all the leaks and stop bringing in more mouths to feed.

    Our State had the best of everything...... our economy was booming, now it's going into the toilet. We have been "social serviced" to death.
    I don't see how you can say that there is nothing to "get" out of illegal aliens. There clearly is or they wouldn't keep moving to the US: CHEAP LABOR!!! Who is working in the fields for less than minimum wage, who is working at carwashes for less than minimum wage, etc? We need to deal with the people who keep profitting from illegal immigrants labor if we want to decrease illegal immigration. If they were kicked out of the country if they were found guilty of using illegal labor I doubt we would see as many people running across the border for those jobs.

    As an aside, aren't a lot of California's economic problems also related to the airline industry and the tech industry taking a dive?
  5. by   MryRose
    Quote from fergus51
    I don't see how you can say that there is nothing to "get" out of illegal aliens. There clearly is or they wouldn't keep moving to the US: CHEAP LABOR!!! Who is working in the fields for less than minimum wage, who is working at carwashes for less than minimum wage, etc? We need to deal with the people who keep profitting from illegal immigrants labor if we want to decrease illegal immigration. If they were kicked out of the country if they were found guilty of using illegal labor I doubt we would see as many people running across the border for those jobs.

    As an aside, aren't a lot of California's economic problems also related to the airline industry and the tech industry taking a dive?
    With a work visa program, there would be thousands and thousands people lined up to have the opportunity to work here. The money saved by not providing healthcare, social services and education could certainly be used to enhance the wages.

    Why would they have to make "American" wages anyway????? If they agreed to be paid at a contracted rate that should suffice. NOBODY would be forcing anyone to come work here. They could work the time allotted by the Visa, and return home at the end. The worker still would have far better wages than if they stayed in thier own country. Be able to come and go legally without worry. Have no excuses for not obeying our laws and have better opportunities to get ahead. And just think, they would not have to pay taxes (legally this time) because no services to provide for them.

    I think that should cover all your issues..... better wages, out in the open able to come and go freely (within reason of course), able to provide a better way of life for their families (in Mexico of course... as a dollar there goes farther than a dollar here). Let's help out impoverished people... I have no problem doing that... but not at the expense of my own people. They can come, earn and then return home... we all end up happy.

    Oh wait... it's not fair to pay less than American wages you say.????

    How many items have you purchased that were made in Mexico or China or Thailand ??????? Do you think those workers were paid American wages???

    It's acceptable because it's "business"..... well that is all it is when comes right down to it about jobs here in America. It's all about business.

    The only difference is that you want to attach Social Services to the paycheck.
  6. by   MryRose
    Quote from fergus51
    .......As an aside, aren't a lot of California's economic problems also related to the airline industry and the tech industry taking a dive?

    That certainly didn't help the economy. However, they are not a continual nor growing source sucking the money from the state's emptying pockets.
  7. by   unknown99
    Quote from MryRose
    Why would they have to make "American" wages anyway????? If they agreed to be paid at a contracted rate that should suffice. NOBODY would be forcing anyone to come work here. They could work the time allotted by the Visa, and return home at the end. The worker still would have far better wages than if they stayed in thier own country. Be able to come and go legally without worry. Have no excuses for not obeying our laws and have better opportunities to get ahead. And just think, they would not have to pay taxes (legally this time) because no services to provide for them.

    Oh wait... it's not fair to pay less than American wages you say.????

    The only difference is that you want to attach Social Services to the paycheck.

    Would you go to Mexico and work for what they pay there???Of course not! So, why would you expect the mexican workers to come here and work for less than what an American doing the same work? And to top it off, are you saying they should work for less money and NOT have the benefits that Americans have doing the same job???
    Now, many, many illegals are doing these jobs AND are having the same taxes taken out of their wages, but they cannot get the taxes back in April like legal americans do.
    Are you saying that the Mexican workers should not be entitled to the social services that come out of the taxes taken from them??? Why not? The legal American worker gets the benefit of social services. Saying that one the Mexican workers shouldn't have it, but the American workers should is a DOUBLE STANDARD, and in my opinion ludicrous!
    What do American workers do with their paycheck? They support and take care of their family. The same is true for the illegal worker, Mexican, and others, only they most generally have to do so with a much lower wage.
    So, in my opinion, one should not say that the illegals should not receive the services which they aid in paying for, unless you walk a mile in their shoes!!!!
  8. by   fergus51
    Quote from MryRose
    With a work visa program, there would be thousands and thousands people lined up to have the opportunity to work here. The money saved by not providing healthcare, social services and education could certainly be used to enhance the wages.

    Why would they have to make "American" wages anyway????? If they agreed to be paid at a contracted rate that should suffice. NOBODY would be forcing anyone to come work here. They could work the time allotted by the Visa, and return home at the end. The worker still would have far better wages than if they stayed in thier own country. Be able to come and go legally without worry. Have no excuses for not obeying our laws and have better opportunities to get ahead. And just think, they would not have to pay taxes (legally this time) because no services to provide for them.

    I think that should cover all your issues..... better wages, out in the open able to come and go freely (within reason of course), able to provide a better way of life for their families (in Mexico of course... as a dollar there goes farther than a dollar here). Let's help out impoverished people... I have no problem doing that... but not at the expense of my own people. They can come, earn and then return home... we all end up happy.

    Oh wait... it's not fair to pay less than American wages you say.????

    How many items have you purchased that were made in Mexico or China or Thailand ??????? Do you think those workers were paid American wages???

    It's acceptable because it's "business"..... well that is all it is when comes right down to it about jobs here in America. It's all about business.

    The only difference is that you want to attach Social Services to the paycheck.
    No, I don't think it's right to bring immigrants here and say minimum wage shouldn't apply. Why would companies hire Americans (cause a lot of Americans need jobs too) if they can just hire truck loads of Mexicans at a quarter the price? How is that a good thing for America? It wouldn't stop them from seeking medical care while they are here and takes away any disincentives companies have from using cheap foreign labor and the government doesn't get any money out of it to contribute to those social problems.
  9. by   MryRose
    Quote from sagarcia210
    Would you go to Mexico and work for what they pay there???Of course not! So, why would you expect the mexican workers to come here and work for less than what an American doing the same work? And to top it off, are you saying they should work for less money and NOT have the benefits that Americans have doing the same job???
    Now, many, many illegals are doing these jobs AND are having the same taxes taken out of their wages, but they cannot get the taxes back in April like legal americans do.
    Are you saying that the Mexican workers should not be entitled to the social services that come out of the taxes taken from them??? Why not? The legal American worker gets the benefit of social services. Saying that one the Mexican workers shouldn't have it, but the American workers should is a DOUBLE STANDARD, and in my opinion ludicrous!
    What do American workers do with their paycheck? They support and take care of their family. The same is true for the illegal worker, Mexican, and others, only they most generally have to do so with a much lower wage.
    So, in my opinion, one should not say that the illegals should not receive the services which they aid in paying for, unless you walk a mile in their shoes!!!!
    IF MEXICO or any other country for that matter, offered me a job with HIGHER wages than I could make in my country WITHOUT benefits from that country it would be my OPTION to take it or not. If the overall benefits to my family were great enough I could choose to do it. The alternative is to STAY in my OWN COUNTRY and make less money. HOW can they lose?????

    Nobody owes me the opportunity to go to another land and earn money!

    The Tax issue is a crock!!! Been there, seen it done... let's see... I'll have 20 deductions please...

    I have my own darned shoes to walk in thank you.... some that got pretty darned worn while I did without so my 2 (not 6) kids could be fed..... while ILLEGALS got free medical care.... I had to pay for mine!

    ILLEGAL ALIENS should not be entitled to ANY benefits..... I think my point is completely clear on this.

    We will NEVER come to an agreement on this...
  10. by   teeituptom
    Illegal aliens arent the problem

    They are a symptom

    As long as Big Business rules in this country. and controls the work force and wages then Illegals will constantly keep being used as a cheaper work source. To keep production costs down, while keeping Americans out of work. If there wasnt better work and better pay for them here then they wouldnt keep coming here.

    An example a friend of mine is a roofing contractor. He does well for himself. When was the last time you had a roof repaired. But when he lines up a job , does he use americans, no he uses Mexican day laborers paying them as little 25 to 50 dollars for an entire 10 or 12 hr day. And they work hard as can be for it also. But that is what everyone else does in that business here too. He doesnt even stay at the work site he just drops by and checks on things. He doesnt do any work himself.

    This isnt right by any means
    If they get injured on the job, he sends them to the ER, but he carries no financial responsiblity at all.
  11. by   mattsmom81
    I'm no fan of big business anti worker tactics and am a strong supporter of unions.

    One thought: if the illegal workers were not so readily available, businesses would have to deal with American workers...would have to negotiate a decent wage and working conditions to get good help.

    Are scab nurses a 'symptom of the problem' or do they provide an 'easy out' for hospitals when nurses try to negotiate for better conditions and go on strike? Are the foreign nurses being shipped in helping the situation or harming ?

    I guess it depends on how one looks at things.

    Perhaps Bush has the right idea...let illegals stay but insist they become legal. I am for kicking them out altogether, but perhaps he is right. We shall see.
  12. by   teeituptom
    The history of our country shows that big business even when "illegals" were considered a problem found ways around things. They imported slaves from Africa. The railroads way back when were famous for importing Chinese and working them at nearly no cost. Cheap Labour has always been a focus of big business, now more than ever before.

    And by the term "Scab Nurses" are you referring to nurses who form a scab as in the healing process. Yes I am not a prounion sympathizer, except for the fact I love Scab Wages. I dont see "Scab Nurses as a symptom" But as a resolution to a problem.

    And saying that the Shrub is right about anything. HHmmm how do you feel about the No Overtime Bill.

    As far as kicking the Illegals out, who would mow our lawns, clean our houses, work at mcdonalds and the other fast food franchises and the car washes. And do the cheap labour that keeps profits up by the contractors. Kick them out and prices would soar. Big Businesses are going to keep their profit margin up at any cost to us not to themselves.

    You are right there are different ways to look at thongs


    Live long and prosper
  13. by   Alnamvet
    I volunteer care at a clinic staffed by volunteers who care for "illegals" who work for low wages, AND, have taxes and other levies taken out of their meager earnings. These workers do not benefit from the taxes taken out of their earnings...someone is...but not them. As far as I'm concerned, they have already paid a hefty premium for the services some of you think they get for free. ALL people who are in this country deserve the very best care possible, whether it be paid for by insurance companies, paid by hospitals who chalk it up to cost of doing business, or just plain for free. I don't distinguish a patient by his ability, or lack there of, to pay, or whether he or she is a citizen, a documented alien, or an illegal alien...I just don't care, and THAT's what is lacking in some of you so-called nurses, who don't see a fellow human being, but a person(s) perhaps not much to your liking...whether it be ethnic, social, economic, racial, citizen, non-citizen, un-documented, some of you forget that they are humans, and that's what nurses are here for...to treat and help human beings! :angryfire

    Viva la raza!!!

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