Undocumented Patients

the_murse_factor · Dec 30, 2016

I have run across two undocumented patients now. Both in similar situations in that they can't leave the hospital because facilities won't take them due to their status. Both are the rudest patients I've ever met.

I never came across any undocumented patients but I have had the pleasure of caring for a few rude American Citizens.

Also the rudness that you appear to be witnessing could in fact be that they are just scared. Undocumented people tend to stay out of the healthcare system in fear of being caught and deported.

Longleggedstar · Dec 30, 2016

I didn't miss it because it isn't true. BO changed the way that the numbers are counted (kind of like how he claims we almost have full employment despite the fact that worker participation is at an all time high). As far as my education goes, I have a degree in history, so I could do w/o the being lectured by someone who I bet does not.
I could care less where an illegal immigrant comes from. There are over 40k Irish in the New York city area and they are breaking the law just as much as someone who comes here south of the border. You are injecting race, not I. And how would you screen? Oh I don't know, I need to have I.D. to buy a beer I don't think it is too much to ask someone for identification for receiving thousands of dollars of tax payer/insurance money. There is no "trigger" for what prompts someone to show ID... everyone should show I.D. And as far as non-US citizens go, I thought we were talking about people who are here illegally? But if you want to talk about people with Visas or students that fine. Those programs are not set up to help those people exclusively, we are supposed to benefit from them being here as well. No one has a right to come here, immigration is supposed to benefit this country and it is a nice side note if the individual who comes here benefits as well.
And who Donald Trump has married is of no concern to me. Is his wife here legally? I would think so, so whatever strawman argument you are trying to make stops right there. And as far as what he is going to do, I don't think Trump knows what he is going to do. I am basing my statements off of what he has said.
NO ONE carries proof of legal status in this country when they go to the hospital (that is ridiculous, the VAST majority of people over 16 have a driver's license). While ID is not required (nor should it be) everyone does have a SS#. If someone shows up to a hospital and they have no way to identify themselves that is suspicious all on its own. They can't they tell you where they live? They can't tell you a name? They can't tell you where they went to school? Now if someone has had a stroke in a mall or some other kind of thing there are ways to find out who that person is so that you can contact their family. You are trying to make some irrational argument that 'it can't be done' when it clearly can be. You have a political slant on this, so you don't want it to be done. There is a difference.
The person who is helping illegals with their taxes... how does that work exactly? Whose SS# do you use to help them in their fraud? If you fill in the blank where the SS should go with "I am illegal" than the government is not doing their job because they just got a tax return from someone who has admitted to a crime. I have no doubt what you are saying is true, but that does not make it legal just because the federal government is not enforcing the law.
And the poster who does a lot of charity work and all that. That's fine, and your choice. I would never tell someone how to spend their money/time as long as what they were doing is legal. All I ask is the same thing, and saying "how dare you" because I don't want my tax money being spent on people here illegally is my perspective.
Reporting someone to ICE as being the same thing as dialing 911 for a missed food order. Wow that's a stretch. Leaving aside the illegals who may be committing tax fraud by using fake social security numbers, or just paying taxes and telling the gov "I am illegal", how do you figure that not putting cheese on my Whopper is the same thing as violating our borders, not paying taxes, and breaking our laws?
And your 12th grade comment. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and show your ignorance proudly. No one was talking about legal immigrants, or people who have come here legally to work. You have no way of answering the question "what about the illegals", so you change the question to one that was not asked.
Lastly, no you don't turn anyone away at a hospital. I thought my comment on Satan/Christ made that obvious. You I.D. the person and let whatever steps after that take care of itself
Oh, and to the "BO has deported more people" nonsense:
High deportation figures are misleading - LA Times

The fact that you are stating ID to be used to even remotely screen someone for legal vs. illegal status...lets me know you are grossly lost when in comes to immigration. Tip: ID is not how you prove citizenship anywhere in the USA. And How many people do you know who walk around with their SS card or Birth Certificate, passport, etc. You want them to SHOW proof right? So far you have stated that illegal immigrants don't file taxes-btw they use a Tax ID provided by the IRS specifically for those who don't have a SSN (please educate yourself on that matter), don't pay for healthcare (b/c none of them have cash or morality... right?) and now they don't have ID? You really think illegal immigrants, don't have ID? This is laughable, good luck!

Zooey72 · Dec 30, 2016

If you are talking about forged documents than you can add that as another crime. If this is so impossible, why did the federal government intervene and it go to the supreme court when Arizona was going to check ID (as in a driver's license) when they pulled people over? And for the record, the Supreme Court did not say that government did not have the right to check citizenship, they said that it was a federal matter and if the feds didn't want Arizona to they couldn't.

But you're right. ID is meaningless! Your argument is beyond absurd... And TIP: With the exception of a handful of states you can not get a driver's license w/o being a citizen. Soooo, if you can't get a driver's license if you are illegal, and driver's licenses are held by almost everyone in the adult population.... I'll let you connect the dots. And to the people who do not have driver's licenses for whatever reason, to function in this country (legally) you must have some way of identifying yourself. Or here is an easy one, check the social security number. Every single person in this country has one (that is here legally). How again do you file taxes w/o a SS#? And I do not have the numbers, but I am pretty sure most illegals do not have health insurance by nature of their employers not supplying it (since the employer is doing something illegal by hiring them). So ya, they probably don't have it for the most part.

I love it. "ID is not used to identify people". Ok, good luck with that argument. Never mind the fact that giving illegals ID is one of the biggest ways some states are trying to circumvent federal law. You can't even catch a fish in this country w/o a license.

And I noticed after I destroyed your "Obama has deported more illegals than anyone" propaganda you have nothing to say about that. Your statement about that shows exactly how little you know on the subject. Here is a logic test for you. BO says he does not plan on enforcing immigration laws on anyone unless they are a hard core criminal, how can he have possibly deported more people than any other president in our history?

Here is a hint, HE LIED by changing the definition of what 'deporting' is. What he did is like me saying my car gets 10000 miles to the gallon, but than I redefine a gallon by saying it is actually 300 gallons.

Longleggedstar · Dec 30, 2016

Reading is fundamental...where did I state "ID is not used to identify people". Please help me find those words. I'll wait. If you are here to spread lies you are in the wrong community.

Again, I have helped many undocumented immigrants file taxes as they are trying to avoid breaking another law. The IRS encourages them to file taxes! Its a fact. Sorry but you cant just make it go away because you don't like it.

What did you destroy?? Haha... I didn't argue with you on that because he has deported more illegals. Its there in black and white. Just because you have a problem with our president (I think everyone here sees that) doesn't change facts.

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Dec 30, 2016

I don't understand how someone who is "undocumented" meaning they do not have any type of government issued number/permit/ID/social security or ID numbers in order to pay any kind of taxes with - how these people are paying taxes?
I know that DOCUMENTED temporary immigrants who are not necessarily citizens, but who have work visas, or temp visas for which they must reapply, or if they are here on another status such as political asylum -etc - all those people have numbers are are paying taxes - they are DOCUMENTED. they are also eligible for Medicaid/medicare and would not be in the predicament I am speaking of.
Undocumented do not have ANY VALID id numbers, and there fore are not paying any kind of taxes (except sales tax at a store where they pay cash). They get jobs down at the corner and are usually hired under the table to split funds from someone who is documented-and those people can't claim them or file taxes for them because they have no valid ID's. they do not have insurance, because they don't have numbers - they are undocumented. They do NOT pay any kind of taxes, nor do they qualify for any kind of medical programs which is why they are stuck in our system.

Undocumented people can (and do) apply for an individual tax ID number (ITIN) from the IRS. This is only used for filing taxes. You can apply for an ITIN as the nonimmigrant spouse of a US citizen here or abroad, as an undocumented person living in the US, or for just about any other reason that you would need to file taxes but don't qualify for a SSN. That's how they're paying taxes. My husband (undocumented for 15 years) did this, ergo, he paid taxes for every year that he made enough to even have to pay them.

Individual Taxpayer Identification Number

As for the assertion that they pay no taxes of any kind? Sales tax, just like you and me. If they're working on a work authorization or fake papers, SS and Medicare taxes. And income taxes as outlined above.

Zooey72 · Dec 30, 2016

Here is where having a degree in history helps. There are things called "primary sources". I stated an Arizona law and the Supreme Court as well what the president's policy change on what a "deportation" actually is. Those are undisputed. Arizona SB 17 - Wikipedia

I posted a link on how he redefined deportation. You do not have an opinion on this any more than someone has an opinion if water is wet. These are laws and FACTS (or in the case of how BO redefined it, an executive order).

As far as where you said "ID can not be used to identify people". You said it can not be used to identify citizenship (I fail to understand your distinction here, but ok). I have just shown you laws passed by Arizona that says that it can be used, and that the Supreme Court upheld that driver's licenses can be a lead to determining legal status (as in if you don't have one, it could be used as a basis to follow up).

And if you are helping illegals with their tax returns what social security # are you using? Because if you are using any you are committing a felony. Again, FACT! Whether the federal government decides to pursue your criminal act (if indeed you are knowingly preparing their papers with a false SS#) is up to their discretion, but it makes it no less a crime.

And if you have 'helped them with their taxes', as you claim to have you know as well as I do that almost 1/2 of the country does not pay federal income tax. If you are helping them file it is because they do not reach the income level to where they contribute, and hence they take more than they give. So you are withholding information you know not to be true when you state "they don't want to break another law" would not be their motivation. If they are filing they are getting a check, because if you are here illegally I can pretty much guarantee you that you do not make enough money for you to contribute more than you take. Our tax structure does not work that way and you (should) know that.

Forbes Welcome

Try the logic test again even if you don't 'feel like' looking at the facts I have given you. Does it make any rational sense to you that a man who has given amnesty to millions of 'dreamers', and attempted executive amnesty on millions more (stopped by the Supreme Court in a 4-4 tie, which by default was upheld by the federal court below it), and has publicly stated that he will not deport non-felon illegals, could at the same time have deported more illegals than any other president? Who exactly is he deporting?

Look up "Operation Wetback", (I didn't name the thing, don't blame me). That took place in the 50's and that is where you will find the most deported.

Look up the term "primary source" as well.

Zooey72 · Dec 30, 2016

Undocumented people can (and do) apply for an individual tax ID number (ITIN) from the IRS. This is only used for filing taxes. You can apply for an ITIN as the nonimmigrant spouse of a US citizen here or abroad, as an undocumented person living in the US, or for just about any other reason that you would need to file taxes but don't qualify for a SSN. That's how they're paying taxes. My husband (undocumented for 15 years) did this, ergo, he paid taxes for every year that he made enough to even have to pay them.
Individual Taxpayer Identification Number
As for the assertion that they pay no taxes of any kind? Sales tax, just like you and me. If they're working on a work authorization or fake papers, SS and Medicare taxes. And income taxes as outlined above.

Thank you for that. I was not aware that existed. I find it a bit absurd that it does, since the government is in essence saying "It is against the law to be here illegally, but if you do we have set up the system for you". This seems rather crazy on the illegals part to participate in this. If the federal government does decide to deport they now have a registry to do it with.

I was speaking of federal and state income tax (if your state has one) to which they would not contribute unless they made more than 45 percent of the country. You can't buy anything in this country w/o paying sales tax so that is a given. But having fake papers means identity theft of some kind because the government will find you if that information can not be traced to a real individual.

AliNajaCat · Dec 30, 2016

What do you think about undocumented patients who abuse the hospital system? Anyone have undocumented patients who basically live at the hospital because their families can't take care of them, and they can't go to a facility because of their undocumented status?

I say to myself, "There but for fortune go I," and give them whatever kindness I can, because they sure aren't getting much from anywhere else (including, it sounds like, people like you).

Longleggedstar · Dec 30, 2016

Thank you for that. I was not aware that existed. I find it a bit absurd that it does, since the government is in essence saying "It is against the law to be here illegally, but if you do we have set up the system for you". This seems rather crazy on the illegals part to participate in this. If the federal government does decide to deport they now have a registry to do it with.
I was speaking of federal and state income tax (if your state has one) to which they would not contribute unless they made more than 45 percent of the country. You can't buy anything in this country w/o paying sales tax so that is a given. But having fake papers means identity theft of some kind because the government will find you if that information can not be traced to a real individual.

Finally you are able to soak in some real knowledge...glad Elvish could get you to understand that illegal immigrants do file taxes, maybe he can get you to understand that some also pay for healthcare and can have ID.

nifty_n · Dec 30, 2016

Why do you think or assume that there is a correlation between being undocumented and abusing the hospital system? You're implying (wrongly i might add) that undocumented people are more likely to "abuse the hospital system" than documented citizens. Undocumented people are the least likely group to seek out medical help because of the stigma of being undocumented and more importantly the fear of being deported.

MunoRN, RN · Dec 30, 2016

Here is where having a degree in history helps. There are things called "primary sources". I stated an Arizona law and the Supreme Court as well what the president's policy change on what a "deportation" actually is. Those are undisputed.
Arizona SB 17 - Wikipedia
I posted a link on how he redefined deportation. You do not have an opinion on this any more than someone has an opinion if water is wet. These are laws and FACTS (or in the case of how BO redefined it, an executive order)...

(Bolding mine)

You posted a link to this article, which doesn't actually say Obama redefined deportation. What it says is that previously, both ICE and the Border patrol were deporting illegals, then under President Bush the process was changed so that ICE handled all deportations which started changing how the numbers are calculated since deportation numbers come from ICE, not the border patrol. Obama has continued with the change Bush made and to be honest it makes sense; the first priority should be to keep illegal crossings from happening in the first place, so letting the Border patrol focus on border security, rather than deportation, seems like common sense.

Zooey72 · Dec 31, 2016

No,

What Obama did was change how the numbers were counted. Before people taken at the border and deported in a day or 2 were not counted. BO counted them. It would be like someone saying that the hospital has had more traffic than ever before because they started counting the people who called the hospital in addition to who actually got services there. I don't care if you want to count the people who called, or don't count them. But once you change HOW you count them it interferes with what the numbers mean. BO is not stupid, and he knows what he is saying is a gross manipulation of the truth. His administration even admitted to it:

Deportations come mostly from border, DHS chief says - Washington Times

He also has stopped even deporting at the border for the most part. Lets not forget about the waves of people who streamed across the border in 2014, and are again coming now trying to get in before a Trump Presidency.

As far as "I was proven wrong" on Illegals filing their taxes. Talk about winning the battle and losing the war on that one. This shows open government corruption in the form of it setting up a system to openly break it's own laws, but also throwing in another party of criminal (the employer) to whom the government would have to have knowledge of their criminal activity in order to process the tax return. Which is just that... a return. All that is shown by me not knowing about the criminality of our government is that I have never had to participate in said criminality. In addition to that, Elvish pointed out facts instead of misleading information intended to manipulate the truth (like what you are doing). Everyone does pay sales tax. I don't dispute that, but not everyone pays federal or state income tax if their wages are in the lower 45%. That covers most illegals, unless like how he stipulated they have committed identity theft and falsified tax returns with fake papers. Not to mention the vast majority of these people are paid under the table, and the only ones who would file are the ones who would get a return.

The more shocking thing to this is that the US government is giving more tax money in the form of returns to low earning illegals than what the illegals contribute. That they have turned a blind eye to employers that they KNOW employ illegals.

Your ID nonsense is just that in regards to illegals. A driver's license is good enough for proof of residency and legal status in order to vote (in states that require ID). Somehow, magically, according to you is not a good enough form of ID anywhere else. Or if there is ID that an illegal gets (as in the case of California where they have taken it on themselves to start issuing driver's licenses to illegals) it is federal law (under the 911 commission) that that ID MUST show the person is not a legal resident.

So if what you mean by "Illegals can get IDs", you mean they can get ID that reflects their illegal status than you are correct. How that helps your argument at all baffles me. If anything all that ID would do is if the said illegal left California and was stopped by police they would be deported by showing that ID.

In addition to that Supreme Court precedence with the Arizona case, the court said that immigration was the sole resp. of the federal government. The BO administration has decided not to pursue cities or states that do not conform to federal law, and the court backed them up. If the Trump administration (or any administration) decided they do want to enforce it (to whatever degree) those licenses would be a big "Deport me" sign on each illegal. Not to mention getting those means they registered, which means we know who they are. I think it is rather stupid of them, because if the political winds change they just registered for their own deportation.