Male Nurse Disgusted by Female Nurses - page 4

Hi Beth: I believe you submitted a recent article about Safe Patient/Nurse Ratios in this country. I have been a nurse for about one year and a half and I am appalled by what I have observed with... Read More

  1. by   NurseNeLz
    "They" "you ladies". Not really liking the tone of this pompous male nurse.
  2. by   holisticallyminded
    Farawyn, I didn't mention "hate" did I? But the notion of "equality" in this context is highly flawed. What are you unequal to? What rights and choices do you not have? I'm sorry but I find the notion of equality between the sexes to be a worthless nothing. I have had more opportunity in my life time as an individual than any other time in all of western civilization. I think you and the other complainers need a history lesson.
  3. by   macawake
    I have been a nurse for about one year and a half and I am appalled by what I have observed with the untenable and unsafe patient/nurse ratios healthcare employers are demanding nurses work with, BUT, I am even more FRUSTRATED and DISGUSTED with the TOTAL LACK OF UNITY among nurses when it comes to speaking in one voice to employers about this.
    Let's all come together as one body and push our legislators for change!! We are in the millions and we are in demand!! That is power!!
    I actually agree with this newly minted nurse. I don't think he chose a particularly diplomatic or strategically smart way to verbalize his thoughts as I think they risk coming off as condescending and perhaps slightly arrogant. Not to mention seeming completely oblivious of the effect of social conditioning. But there is definitely some truth in his statements.

    Nursing is a second career for me. I come from a law enforcement background and I spent a big chunk of that career working as a lone female in an all-male group. That has shaped me and I have on many occasions been mistaken for being a man in written communication when I've signed with only first initial. lastname instead of my full name. People were surprised that I'm a woman when we finally met face-to-face. I've been told that I am assertive, precise and that I seem to have an expectation that I will be listened to and somehow that conjures up the image of a male in their minds

    When I first started in nursing the culture shock was enormous. It frustrated me then and if I'm honest, it still does. I come from a background were we knew that we had strength in numbers. And we made our employer realize it. We knew that we possessed skills that were valuable to our employer and we knew that if we could just stick together, there was no room for them to treat us poorly. As a result, we weren't treated poorly.

    Most of the women I work with are smart, skilled professionals but I cannot wrap my head around why nurses as a profession are willing to take so much crap and make so few demands (and mean it). If one or three nurses leave a job because because they find the work conditions unacceptable, it will not matter one iota. The employer will hire replacements. If the employer is faced with a REAL risk that EVERYONE will leave then trust me, they'll change their tune.

    One of the things that I've discussed in previous threads on AN is that so many posters express that nurses have to expect to be threatened and even assaulted at work and that employers will not protect them, even going as far as firing a nurse who dares file a report with the police if they've been assaulted. When I've asked these posters if they've actually experienced this in real life (ie a nurse being assaulted, reporting it to the police and subsequently being fired), not a single one of them could say that had happened. Yet, they live in fear of this happening and feel that they have to accept that the risk of being assaulted and having no legal recourse is just something a nurse has to deal with. I have defended myself against violent patients and the occasional unruly family member. I've never gotten in trouble for it. The law of whatever country you live and work in applies to nurses too, and employers don't have the right to rob an employee of their legal protection. I've had coworkers say that they would never dare do what I did, and I just don't get it. No employer will ever deprive me of my legal rights.

    Another major difference in my anecdotal experience is staff meetings. Previous career, if we had an issue with how our employer handled something and one of us brought it up in a meeting, others would voice their support loud and clear. Nursing meetings drive me nuts. If I bring something up that people have been complaining about for the longest time and suggest a solution, everyone sits silently. Not a peep. And AFTER the darn meeting, they will approach me in private and thank me for saying what I said. I try to explain that I alone will not effect any real change. If they are serious about their complaints they need to stand up and say; I agree with loudmouth-pain-in the-butt macawake

    I genuinely wish that all parents could raise their daughters to realize that it is okay for them to make demands and to expect that their voices are heard and respected. See, the funny thing is that that expectation has a way of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. You do teach people how to treat you.

    One conclusion that I've arrived at is that employer's often use some of the most defining traits of the nursing profession as a weapon against nurses. It's almost akin to being held (an emotional) hostage. Nurses care about their patients and a nurse will often go to great lengths to keep a patient safe and well cared for. Unreasonable nurse-patient ratio, the nurse will just run faster, often to the detriment of thir own health. That has to stop. We actually do have strength in numbers. Things can improve, but it will never happen by itself. WE need to make it happen.


    Great post Nurse Beth! I think you did a good job of identifying some of the obstacles we have to overcome and conquer.
  4. by   feelix
    Not surprised at all at how we are bashing the OP on the basis of gender, instead of trying to understand what he is trying to say. It is all this emotional stuff that keeps us behind. Yes, it is true that the healthcare workplace has the worst human network. Yet, physicians, who have male majority back each other up, while nurses who have femal majority pull each other's leg. Nobody wants to hear why? We want to be mollycoddled, told things we want to hear, rather than the truth and if anyone wants to speak the truth, we start whining about them being insensitive. This kind of attitude will let us hide our heads in the sand for another century while other disciplines will go forward in leaps and bounds.
  5. by   muggs
    I will agree that the way this is put comes off as an attack but I think the ladies here are taking these words a little too much to heart. Everything he said is true for the most part, and can you deny that women do tend to be catty? Can you deny that they will ****** and moan in private rather than go to management? I have seen this myself time and again having worked in many places where females outnumbered males.

    Women often ask why guys don't express their feelings, well this is how we do it. This is the only acceptable way we have been taught we are allowed to. He is showing his frustration and disappointment through anger. Where as a woman may cry and look for comfort we can't do that we can only get mad and blow off steam.

    Why doesn't he take it upon himself to go to management and get things changed? Why does he need everyone else? Well let me tell you this is a lesson I have learned the hard way. When you do this, whether in the right or not, you get singled out and in most cases end up getting setup to be fired. Safety in numbers anyone?

    I know these forums have to be, by the demographic of the professional field, overwhelmingly female but for gods sake please, please, PLEASE do not use the word patriarchy while talking to male coworkers. Whether true or not that is just one of those words and will put the person you are talking to on the defensive. Simply saying "a mostly male dominated" while the same thing is better sounding.

    As for guys getting more money as nurses I can't really say. Could it be that society still for some reason thinks a guy is more capable compared to a woman? Maybe. I know my grandmother always says she would rather have a guy taking care of her over a girl. It could be because of how society was, but it is changing. Granted it is not changing as fast as we would like, but it is changing. It isn't the fault of nurses but the fault of the people and their lack of knowledge of the nurses vast base of knowledge. I can certainly tell you I would rather something explained to me by a female RN with 35 years experience over a male doctor fresh out of med school. Or could it be that management sees that the guys are often asked to do more physical work by coworkers (lifting patients, restraining aggressive patients etc) and they want to compensate them for doing so? Maybe. I have worked with patients that had developmental disabilities and their way of expressing themselves was by becoming aggressive and had to be restrained physically. My coworkers were almost always all females and I felt the need to be there to protect them. Yes, I know i said it I'm not going to mince words that's how I felt. As to why that was, for one i'm a big guy (no, not a "Me big. Me man. Me strong." big guy I mean a 235 lb guy, I'm fat lol) and most of the girls were small, I'm talking 90 lbs soaking wet small. The residents ranged from 150-265 lbs. So if I got punched I knew it was going to hurt, but it was going to hurt my coworkers more. Two, they always yelled for me when something happened, so there's that. Three, some of my coworkers liked it. As one of the older women stated " I like having the guys around when this stuff goes on. it makes me feel safer having them around."
    Now this isn't to say the girls weren't able to do this stuff on their own, they got the same training as I did in SCIP and as a matter of fact we got yelled at by my boss one day for all this. She said "None of you should be acting like a white knight and always taking it upon yourself to intervene and no one should always be calling them to intervene." Funny thing about that is two of the girls I didn't really get along with said how they never did that and they could handle things themselves, not 30 minutes later were screaming for me when one of the guys was having a behavioral issue.

    Anyhow I'm getting off on a tangent (sorry ADHD i do that sometimes lol)

    More to the point i am reminded of a joke:
    Men socialize by making fun of each other, but they don't really mean it. Women socialize by complimenting each other, but they don't really mean it.

    Edit: These are my thoughts based upon my experiences and do not necessarily represent the thoughts or experiences of others, and some of my thoughts may or may not need further explanation to make better sense to anyone other than myself. So take it as you will and if you wish ask for further clarification.
    Last edit by muggs on Jan 17 : Reason: disclaimer
  6. by   Farawyn
    Quote from holisticallyminded
    Farawyn, I didn't mention "hate" did I? But the notion of "equality" in this context is highly flawed. What are you unequal to? What rights and choices do you not have? I'm sorry but I find the notion of equality between the sexes to be a worthless nothing. I have had more opportunity in my life time as an individual than any other time in all of western civilization. I think you and the other complainers need a history lesson.
    For once, I am speechless.
    Congratulations.
  7. by   lvnforschool
    I recently went for a job interview in another part of my state (CA). When I first started out as an LVN, I made 23.00/hr. That was almost 5 years ago. Now this new city was over 3 hours away from my current location, and located in a upscale beach/shopping community. I was expecting to make at least $25 if not more. NO, I was offered 22/hr to start! EXCUSE ME!!!!
    I tried to calmly explain that I started out making more, and that was 5 years ago. She basically looked at me, and said "well, that's the starting pay"! No type of negotiation or ANYTHING.
    I know in my heart she didn't care because SOMEONE, would be willing to take 22/hr and my value was not even on the negotation table.
    It was a sad day for me as a Nurse.
  8. by   BCgradnurse
    Quote from holisticallyminded
    Farawyn, I didn't mention "hate" did I? But the notion of "equality" in this context is highly flawed. What are you unequal to? What rights and choices do you not have? I'm sorry but I find the notion of equality between the sexes to be a worthless nothing. I have had more opportunity in my life time as an individual than any other time in all of western civilization. I think you and the other complainers need a history lesson.
    Seriously, what world have you been living in? With this one post you completely invalidate the struggles of many women over the last however many years. I think you're the one who needs a history lesson and a reality check.
  9. by   kidzcare
    Quote from muggs
    I will agree that the way this is put comes off as an attack but I think the ladies here are taking these words a little too much to heart. Everything he said is true for the most part, and can you deny that women do tend to be catty? Can you deny that they will ****** and moan in private rather than go to management? I have seen this myself time and again having worked in many places where females outnumbered males.
    The point was/is that our society conditions men and women to act the way they do. Women have been conditioned (by parents, peers, media, combination of those factors) to be quietly but ruthlessly competitive with each other.

    Society is conditioned to believe that being "feminine" and "sweet" means staying quiet while being treated unfairly. Look to any sitcom or movie featuring a bumbling, inept husband/father while his disproportionately attractive wife sighs and laughs off his irresponsibility while taking over his share of work.

    Women who are assertive (i.e. asking for fair treatment) are labeled as complainers while men who do the same are hailed as go-getters and problem solvers.

    It's not a specific workplace or work field problem. It's a societal problem.
  10. by   Bearsbart
    I agree AutumnApple. Excuses and the victim mentality negate power. Choose to be the change, choose to unite, and choose to focus on solutions versus blame.
  11. by   Farawyn
    Quote from Bearsbart
    I agree AutumnApple. Excuses and the victim mentality negate power. Choose to be the change, choose to unite, and choose to focus on solutions versus blame.
    What do you think women are doing? Right now? For years? Centuries?

    As for our profession, specifically? Nurses as a WHOLE need to do that, not only women. The OP is divisive, so while he's picking, we pick back.

    Being a victim is being quiet. Stop with that. Speaking out is ANTI victim mentality.
  12. by   Farawyn
    Quote from grad2012RN
    could not figure out how to delete my response. sorry.
    Tricksy board.
  13. by   EKUGRAD
    Oh, my. Another opportunity to talk about what "women are taught" in America. I need to point out that if someone is taught, there must be a teacher. My observation and experience is that those teachers are predominantly other women. I have been a Registered Nurse for 43 years. Before that, I was CNA, Surgery Tech, Orderly, Ortho Tech, etc. My mother and father were both nurses and I was literally born to this calling. On a positive note, let me commend "Male Nurse" for speaking out, if only on a blog. Believe me, for every b**tch I've heard referring to a female nurse, I've heard a**hole for the male nurse just as much. And, let's put to rest the statement with words to the effect, " everybody knows male nurses are paid more". The skewed "statistics" show that a disproportionate number of Nurse Anesthetists are men. Of course, they are paid more for their education and accountability. As for nurturing being a female domain, simply not true. I personally experience the nurturing experience with patients and families. I have delivered 11 babies myself, one on the floor, during a code. I have held the hand of a dying man for hours because he had no family and asked not to be left alone. I have held a weeping young mother at the bedside in the Trauma ICU as her 16 year old son slipped away from a GSW to the head. My bare right hand has held a beating heart until the patient (with me on the rails of the bed) could return to the O.R. to re-tie an aortic tear. I have had the honor to work alongside male and female nurses who selflessly gave of their own heart and soul for patients and families. NOW - let's talk about our voice. What a great metaphor about the rake and the bulldozer. I have been watching, waiting, working, writing to try to get this miracle to occur and nurses will speak with one voice. However, I am almost ready to just give up. After all these years, nurses still can't make up their minds on entry-into-practice. 2 years? 3 years? 4 years? On Line? On site? Must have BSN? MSN? DNP? PhD? The great Luther Christman advocated the doctorate as the basic entry point with internships and residencies as the supporting education. In today's world, is that even fantasy?? I left the ANA when they declared gun control as their national health goal in the 1980's. Go to List of Professional Nursing Organizations | nurse.org and marvel at the dozens of separatist nurses groups. Are they useful? Yes. Are they divisive? Yes. Each person, each nurse has only a measured amount of time to devote to self, no more, no less. Nurses, male, female and other, must put aside individual interest, petty or not, in order to grow that bulldozer and get it out of the garage. Nurses must learn to ROAR !

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