help, i didn't know i did something wrong

cardiacRN2006, ADN, RN · Sep 16, 2007

It's just tacky. Considering that you're a per diem nurse at these places, you will be lucky to keep your job.

i'm a per diem nurse and work at several hospitals. two of the hospitals require acls.

If more of the hospitals that you work for had required ACLS, were you going to charge them too?

strive4mores · Sep 16, 2007

i want to take a minute to thank you for all your responses.

thank you to someone who was the "kindest of all" in staing that i didn't need to hear more of how wrong i was.

as a per diem nurse, i receive no benefits from any of the hospitals i work at. i have no health, dental, vacation or sick time.

in my thought process (which all of you has said was basically, off kilter) i'd like to add that the reason i "doubled billed" was because two hospitals required i have certain certifications. Since I had fulfilled my certifications that each hospital requested i keep updated, i thought that it was their responsibility to pay me for upkeeping my end of my job requirements. I had no intention of being deceitful, you told me i need a; to work here, you should pay me for keeping a; current. why should another hospital pay me for keeping my requirements to work updated when hospital b; should never incur a cost. i didn't lie and say i completed a course i didn't, i was fulfilling a requirement you had of me.

as for those who said how could i have thought that this would be acceptable, well, i met a hospital requirement. they required me to keep up with certification, why shouldn't they pay for me to be certified for my job requirement at their hospital. why should only one hospital pay for a certification and others reap the beneifits?

i had no intention of being deceitful. i never compromised patient care. i take good care of my patients. i requested 8 hours education time for the time i spent fulfilling my obligation. if you required that i have certification to work at your facility and that certification expired each year would you say no, sorry, i know you became recertified for your position because we require it, but we shouldn't have to pay you for it, that would make me wonder.

again, i thank all respondents, i didn't realize i would be so accused of my nursing abilities when i posted a question that is very concerning to me. i didn't realize i had made a mistake, i thought in all honesty that since i had met my requirements, that the hospitals that made those "requirements" should pay me for keeping my end of the agreement.

again, thanks, i'm glad i was able to hear all thoughts on this problem.

I'd pay it back ASAP.
If both are willing to pay for the course, then in the future you could negotiate in advance that each one picks up half.
I would apologize profusely to both places, pay each one back in full, and be extremely careful from here on out. If not, you may find it difficult to find work.

Long Term Care Columnist / Guide · Sep 16, 2007

Sarah, you have received some good advice here. For the sake of the rest of your career, I would suggest you be scrupulously honest from here on out, pay back both hospitals, and never, EVER do anything like this again.

As for other members........yes, the OP did wrong, and she knows it. There is no need to pile on; more harsh words may only alienate her when what she needs is the encouragement to face up to what she's done and put things right.

Thank you.

strive4mores · Sep 16, 2007

hi,

i wanted to thank you for the most comforting response i received all evening. i wonder if i had posted "positive" nursing experience had i had so much of a response.

I realize I've made a mistake, I came here for encouragement not to be insulted. I didn't realize that asking for reimbursement for education required for my job would be met with so much opposition and insults.

Let me tell you who I am'

i am not a nurse who would transport your loved one to a floor with feces and urine all over their body because my shift was ending.

i am not a nurse who would "steal" a fentanyl patch from a patient because i had an addition.

I am a nurse who would';

shave your loved one at 9 p.m. because the day shift couldn't

who would offer you staff coffee because you were scared

who would hug you and say "i'll do my best" but i just don't know how the night will go.

cry because someone young wasn't going to make it but my 89 year old patient would.

for all those who had an iota of support, thank you, for all those who had the need to jump on the bandwagon because i did something that i didn't realize was wrong, i hope you NEVER do anything wrong in your careers and have the need to look for encouragement and/or support only for people to jump aboard and say "how awful a nurse you are" when you really know you've done everything for your patients and made a mistake that you didn't really think too much about.

Sarah, you have received some good advice here. For the sake of the rest of your career, I would suggest you be scrupulously honest from here on out, pay back both hospitals, and never, EVER do anything like this again.
As for other members........yes, the OP did wrong, and she knows it. There is no need to pile on; more harsh words may only alienate her when what she needs is the encouragement to face up to what she's done and put things right.
Thank you.

Music in My Heart · Sep 17, 2007

I'm convicted by the prior posts and I've deleted my last post.

You did what you did believing it was OK. As Tweety said, the consensus seems to be that it wasn't. You know that now. You did something wrong but you didn't do it maliciously. Some mistakes are bigger than others but in this one, nobody was hurt so it's not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

Apologize profusely and pay back any monies received for this.

I apologize to you for piling on. As Jesus said, "Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone." I've had my share of lapses and I should've kept my stones to myself. Please forgive me.

I hope this works out OK for you.

leslie :-D · Sep 17, 2007

hi,
i wanted to thank you for the most comforting response i received all evening. i wonder if i had posted "positive" nursing experience had i had so much of a response.
I realize I've made a mistake, I came here for encouragement not to be insulted. I didn't realize that asking for reimbursement for education required for my job would be met with so much opposition and insults.
Let me tell you who I am'
i am not a nurse who would transport your loved one to a floor with feces and urine all over their body because my shift was ending.
i am not a nurse who would "steal" a fentanyl patch from a patient because i had an addition.
I am a nurse who would';
shave your loved one at 9 p.m. because the day shift couldn't
who would offer you staff coffee because you were scared
who would hug you and say "i'll do my best" but i just don't know how the night will go.
cry because someone young wasn't going to make it but my 89 year old patient would.
for all those who had an iota of support, thank you, for all those who had the need to jump on the bandwagon because i did something that i didn't realize was wrong, i hope you NEVER do anything wrong in your careers and have the need to look for encouragement and/or support only for people to jump aboard and say "how awful a nurse you are" when you really know you've done everything for your patients and made a mistake that you didn't really think too much about.

guilty.

heartfelt apologies.

and thank you.

leslie

Tweety, BSN, RN · Sep 17, 2007

It's understandable. To be honest, if two people said "I"ll give you $100.00 to go to ACLS and it's required that you go.", I might go up to both of them and say "I went!".

I hope it works out for you and you don't lose the job.

BabyRN2Be · Sep 17, 2007

why should only one hospital pay for a certification and others reap the beneifits?

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was "piling on", but I really wanted to know where you were coming from. Thank you for your explanations.

About the above quote from your last post, I will say that I understand and you do have a point here. Why should one hospital pay and the others reap the benefits? Maybe in the future, you may want to see if the PP advice is a possibility... sharing the responsibility among the hospitals. I don't see how they wouldn't be happy to do that, as it would be a win/win situation: you get your certification, and the hospital ultimately will pay less.

As far as your thoughts go on why shouldn't the hospital pay you for meeting the ACLS requirements. Think of it this way: they are providing you with a job. I've seen it here on this site that in some places, there isn't a nursing shortage and it's difficult to find a job within a decent driving distance, if any at all. Now, I realize I'm writing this and I don't know your situation. You said that you were a per diem nurse and I have no idea whether or not you wanted this type of working arrangement. But there are some places where there aren't as many nursing jobs.

One more thought from the above train of thought. You are paying for knowledge that you didn't have before. The instructors need to be paid for their time, expertise, and class materials. You, in turn, will take this information for your benefit, use it in your work, and then be paid. You will benefit from this information, maybe not financially in the immediate future, but your patients will benefit from it and you will be paid by your employer. You've become a more valuable employee once you have this information. As you said, this is a recert situation and it's not entirely new information for you, but I'm sure that as new research has been done in this field since you last took the course, they pass this on to you so you will have new information you previously didn't have.

Obviously, you do understand that you did do something wrong, and you need to focus on what to do to rectify the situation. I'd consider writing a letter of apology to the hospitals, offer to pay for the class itself for this time only. There may be some trust issues you may have to deal with, but I know that you can prove yourself.

I don't believe that this is an unrecoverable mistake. You will need to take some time to prove yourself and with time I believe that you'll be OK. Best of luck to you and I'm sorry this got so long. :)

Susan9608 · Sep 17, 2007

Did the hospitals pay you for the education time or did they actually pay for the class?

In my opinion, which you can take or dismiss, both hospitals paying you for education time is one thing (since most hospitals have policies and such about what qualifies as education time and how much you can have and so on and so forth.) Maybe the water is a little murky about how ethical it is to collect education pay from two hospitals while only taking one class, but if they both require ACLS and are both willing ... I don't necessarily think that's deceitful on your part.

What I thought - and still think - is unfair (but which doesn't sound like it's actually the situation here) is having both hospitals reimburse you for the class itself. My hospital reimburses us for required training, so I just assumed that most others do as well. My thought was that if you only paid for the class once, but got reimbursed twice that that was a little unfair. But that doesn't even seem to be what you were talking about ... so it's all a moot point anyways.

I hope you work things out. I've noticed that things usually don't turn out as badly as you fear they might, so hopefully the fall out won't be as bad as you expect.

Good luck.

CRNI-ICU20 · Sep 17, 2007

Your NM said you were falsifying records because when you double bill, they have to account on their end where the money went that they paid you....you are collecting twice for the same "service" as it were....it would be like you going to a hairdresser and they charge you twice for the same service....

By filling out paperwork for this, it does constitute a falsification; it doesn't matter if you knew or didn't know this was/is wrong....

I think you should go to your NM, humbly apologize, tell him/her that you truly thought, just as you did, that since both places required this for your job, you could bill both places, and you are sorry. Then offer to cover the cost yourself, to show good faith...

Then...

Be very diligent from now on with any kind of paperwork involving re-imbursement....make sure you understand the particulars....

It could have been the IRS!! ugh!

Nightcrawler, BSN, RN · Sep 17, 2007

as a per diem nurse, i receive no benefits from any of the hospitals i work at. i have no health, dental, vacation or sick time.
first of all, by stating this you seem to be intimating that you are being taken advantage of because you do not receive these benefits. on the contrary, if your hospital is like many others, you make a higher hourly wage and have more control over your schedule than those that are full time employees with benefits.
as for those who said how could i have thought that this would be acceptable, well, i met a hospital requirement. they required me to keep up with certification, why shouldn't they pay for me to be certified for my job requirement at their hospital. why should only one hospital pay for a certification and others reap the beneifits?
the hospital that i am at now pays both for required classes and for the time to take them, but the hospital that i worked at previously paid for the initial acls, but did not pay for renewals. they saw it as the nurses responsibility to maintain the cert just as they were responsible for making sure that their license was current
i had no intention of being deceitful.... i didn't realize i would be so accused of my nursing abilities when i posted a question that is very concerning to me. i didn't realize i had made a mistake, i thought in all honesty that since i had met my requirements, that the hospitals that made those "requirements" should pay me for keeping my end of the agreement.
the problem that i personally have with your posts is that you truly never see a problem with doing what you did. by billing both hospitals for the same education time, accusing you of falsifying documentation was a kindness. yes renewing certifications is annoying, but it is your responsibility as a nurse that works in an area that requires acls and other certs. if you do not want to be responsible for keeping them up, you can choose to work in an area that doesn't require acls. if you were so concerned with both hospitals being held "responsible", you could have decided to charge one hospital for this cert, and the other for the next.

it comes down to this for me; if you thought that it was acceptable to double dip on the education reimbursement, there is an element of poor judgement on your part. the fact that you got so upset with those that responded honestly to your original post shows that you weren't truly looking for advice, which you received, but that you were looking to be told that you were right. this site is not for blind support of whatever the op states, but is rather a forum for information and support. i do not feel that anyones response was personally attacking to you, merely your decisions and choices.

i am not attacking you, but taking issue with your choices.

Indy, LPN, LVN · Sep 17, 2007

Here's a little different perspective. Suppose you work at one hospital, they pay you for the education time and they pay for the class, you do ACLS and then quit and go to a different hospital. The second one reaps the benefits of what the first one paid for... whether or not it's a job requirement.

I don't think, even though some facilities and/or units make ACLS a job requirement, that the hospitals themselves are the major beneficiaries of the nurse having done the class and gotten the certification. The patients who get good care, and the nurse who gets good jobs and possible career advancement, are the major beneficiaries, in my opinion.

It's possible the employers in this situation have that kind of an idea and just aren't saying it, but they assume the OP knows what they are thinking. Bad communication, but that's what made the situation happen in the first place.

By the way, there might be eight paid hours of education at question here, but I guarantee you any good nurse who passes ACLS spends more than that studying, so why is our at-home study time less valuable, eh?