artificial feeding-Terri Schiavo - page 8

I posted this here becaue I think this subject is something that we as nurses deal with on a regular basis.....Many many people state that they have a big problem with the feeding being stopped... Read More

  1. by   Spidey's mom
    ktwlpn - I'd like to gently point out that you are also judging this situation according to your idea of honor and morals and letting your emotions color your perception. Which is what we all are doing of course.

    Disabled people ARE actually very involved in this case and they themselves feel that they are part of it. Terri is disabled - not brain dead. They fear the slippery slope of Peter Singer or others who think those who are a drain on their family's financial situation or on the government should do the right thing and die. I think it is wrong to tell people who are disabled that they don't have a voice in this matter.

    I want the government to be involved to the extent that euthanasia does not happen - I do not believe in it.

    steph
  2. by   happy&healthy
    Please *speedily* act on these 2 constructive suggestions:
    1. Pray to God, that people with a healthy conscience, will get their Congress-members to vote "Yes" for Disability Groups Support H.R. 1151 and S. 539 - "Disabled Persons' Lifesaving Habeas Corpus Review Act"
    plus
    2. Give some looong considerate thought to How *you* can help people, like Terri, enjoy a full life...


    Quote from subee
    Artificial feeding can be a heroic measure under some circumstances - unfortunately in too many cases. If Terri is being tube fed can we not assume that she has no or an insufficient gag reflex. Being able to swallow a sip of water and being fed by mouth are not the same thing. How much are the taxpayers paying for her care? If her parents want to control her prolonged death, they should take her home. There are so many other patients that could use the money that is spent on her care - including prevention.
    quote: "prolonged death" - may I offer that Terri, and others like her in similar predicaments, remain where they are - because life inside her particular coma state is much different than how you are perceiving it, currently. AND
    thus,
    do you honestly think your present negativities towards her, is encouraging individuals like Terri to choose exiting the mind-state she's occupying currently, and rejoin you in the Present moment? - towards what miserable end? - merely for needing to tolerate Care-providers with harmful attitudes, would be helping such people, how? Murdering can go by several different names, like Abortion, Euthenasia, etc. Is that, really, the kind of contribution nurses are being taught to "honor" now?



    quote: " If Terri is being tube fed can we not assume that she has no or an insufficient gag reflex.
    "Assume" - apt description, based on continued negative harmful pre-supposition/Beliefs.

    Of course, how might a positive helpful person ably guide Terri in demonstrating to you, differently ?



    quote: " If her parents want to control her prolonged death, they should take her home."

    Were they given half-a-chance, her parents might accept their daughter back into their home. But they're not granted any beneficial choices, currently.


    again, Please *speedily* act on these 2 constructive suggestions, I started my response with.
    Last edit by happy&healthy on Mar 16, '05
  3. by   Tweety
    Quote from stevielynn
    ktwlpn - I'd like to gently point out that you are also judging this situation according to your idea of honor and morals and letting your emotions color your perception. Which is what we all are doing of course.

    Disabled people ARE actually very involved in this case and they themselves feel that they are part of it. Terri is disabled - not brain dead. They fear the slippery slope of Peter Singer or others who think those who are a drain on their family's financial situation or on the government should do the right thing and die. I think it is wrong to tell people who are disabled that they don't have a voice in this matter.

    I want the government to be involved to the extent that euthanasia does not happen - I do not believe in it.

    steph

    You're right we all have our own personal ideas that we want to put on this situation, and I know that's exactly what I'm doing.

    To me "disabled" or differently abled requires some rehab capacity. Maybe there should be the category "unabled".

    There are two sides to the slipperly slope. As you know I'm concerned about the other side of the slippery slope. That the rights of spouses and families to allow severely vegetative state cases to finish the process their injury/illness started and to die in peace and comfort, rather than live for years in a vegetative state.

    I sincerely doubt we are moving towards a state of random euthanasia of persons with handicaps. I'm a bit confused about the slippery slope fears anyway, as people have been discontinuing feedings and treatments on vegetative patients for many years now. This case is unique in there's a fight between husband and parents.

    (Again, note, I have some problems with this case and the time frame involved.)
    Last edit by Tweety on Mar 16, '05
  4. by   Kyriaka
    Quote from ktwlpn
    what really strikes me here is the amount of mis-information quoted in post after post on this thread /color]....the right to die issue should not be lumped in with the rights of the disabled....i want the right to determine how i want to live or die-i am not telling you what you should do with yourself.....terri's case has nothing to do with the disabled imo.i believe that she probably said yrs ago that she would not want to be kept alive by "heroic measures" i believe that includes tube feeding....nutrition delivered by any other route then p.o. is not "natural" by any stretch of the imagination.......when i was in my teens and early 20's i knew many young men and women that were killed in accidents ,overdosed or were suicides.the rest of us often spoke of endof life issues....remember karen quinlan? i bet terri schiavo was familiar with her,too....some of you just keep judging her husband according to your idea of honor and morals-believing everything you see and read on the net and tv,letting your emotions regarding end of life issues and your experiences color your view of her situation....i challenge you to look at the law involved....do you want the right to make end of life decisions for yourself or do you want the government to decide for you? if you think terri's husband is wrong and the government should keep stepping in to stop her from dying then you have to realize that this particular case is one in a million...you know if this type of decision was left up to the government ltc's would empty out in the blink of an eye...they'd put a lifetime cap on medical benefits and that would be that....the danger of this case is letting it set a precedent----each case is unique-we must remember that.....we don't want anyone having the power to step in and make this decision for us and our families....
    _______________
    i guess someone needs to tell the disabled people in wheelchairs outside terri's "home" that this has nothing to do with disability.
  5. by   Kyriaka
    There IS life in a coma. Perhaps it is easier for some health care workers to believe that there is no life. That the person is an object.

    But a person in a coma IS alive. And they feel. And they perceive. I know.

    You are not just a blob with no feelings, no thoughts, no caring. It isnt that way.
  6. by   Tweety
    Quote from Kyriaka
    There IS life in a coma. Perhaps it is easier for some health care workers to believe that there is no life. That the person is an object.

    But a person in a coma IS alive. And they feel. And they perceive. I know.

    You are not just a blob with no feelings, no thoughts, no caring. It isnt that way.

    There are differing degrees of coma, vegetative state depending on the area of the brain damaged.

    The locked-in state you describe must be a nightmare.

    But where in this thread are people saying they are just a blob with no feelings, thoughts or caring?

    Note to self: Stay out of this thread!
    Last edit by Tweety on Mar 16, '05
  7. by   SmilingBluEyes
    good idea Tweety ...I am doing the same. There are no winners here. Not Terri, not her family, not even her "husband".....the whole thing is so sad and sick.
  8. by   Tweety
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    good idea Tweety ...I am doing the same. There are no winners here. Not Terri, not her family, not even her "husband".....the whole thing is so sad and sick.

    Agreed.
  9. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from Tweety
    There are differing degrees of coma, vegetative state depending on the area of the brain damaged.

    The locked-in state you describe must be a nightmare.

    But where in this thread are people saying they are just a blob with no feelings, thoughts or caring?

    Note to self: Stay out of this thread!
    I think this thread has been very enlightening for folks. I've actually learned a few things and I completely understand where you are coming from because as a nurse I've seen some things that have frightened me. I would not want to end my life in a vegetative state. Nor would I want to be a quad like Christopher Reeve . . . I can foresee the line moving as to who get their feeding tube pulled . . .things are happening in other parts of the world that are downright scary. And here in America, we are cloning embyros when a few years ago everyone was against cloning . . .

    Tweety I can see how scary it would be not to have any rights when it comes to your spouse and vice versa . . .

    I think you bring alot to the conversation . . .thanks.

    steph
  10. by   Overland1
    Quote from Kyriaka
    I question his motives.

    Last time she was removed from food/water, her parents wanted a priest to giver her last rites. The husband refused.

    There has been a sworn statement from Terri's nurse that her husband came into the room and asked, "is the b*tch dead yet?" and "I am going to be rich!"
    What a husband!!!!!! Before she was hospitalized, he probably awakened each morning, headed for the refrigerator to check the milk carton, hoping to find her picture.

    The media is not questioning the husband's intentions (which have become quite obvious), but seems to be in favor of D/C'ing the tube feedings. Most of the general public probably thinks that would result in an instant and painless death.

    As for the term "heroic measures", I have actually seen where patients have used this incredibly vague term in stating their wishes in writing. Ask any ten doctors, nurses, and/or lawyers what this term really means, and you will likely receive at least a thousand answers.
    Last edit by Overland1 on Mar 16, '05
  11. by   DelightRN
    This is the latest on this case, from about 30 minutes ago. The courts aren't going to intervene and stop the withdrawal of artificial nutrition and hydration that is scheduled for Friday.

    For some reason my link won't work, so I'll cut and paste here.

    Court Won't Intervene in Schiavo Case
    Florida State Appeals Court Won't Block Removal of Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube

    TAMPA, Fla. Mar 16, 2005-A state appeals court Wednesday refused to block the removal of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube later this week, shifting the focus in the right-to-die dispute to the Legislature.

    The 2nd District Court of Appeal in Lakeland turned down a request by Bob and Mary Schindler for a delay while they pursue further appeals, and for a new trial on their daughter's fate.

    The tube is scheduled to be removed on Friday at 1 p.m.

    Florida legislators pushed bills to block Michael Schiavo from having his wife's feeding tube removed. The Senate and House were scheduled to consider competing bills Thursday, but negotiators said it would be difficult to reconcile them in time.

    "We need to able to talk long and hard about this," said state Rep. Shelley Vana.

    Schiavo, 41, suffered severe brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped, and court-appointed doctors say she is in a persistent vegetative state. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, has said she told him she would not want to be kept alive artificially. Her parents dispute that, and say she could get better.

    Late last month, Circuit Judge George Greer granted Michael Schiavo permission to remove the feeding tube. After that, it could take a week or two for Terri Schiavo to die.


    Copyright 2005 The Associated Press.
    Last edit by DelightRN on Mar 16, '05
  12. by   ~Kitty~
    This situation has caused me to think, what would I want?
    I honestly don't think we can say for sure, because we are not in that situation. It is easy to say we wouldn't want to live like that as we live our life now. Perhaps the perceptions of a person in that situation are not the same. Perhaps if Terri has any awareness of herself, she thinks that her life is perfectly fine because that is her life as she knows it now.
    What if I told my family now that I would not want to "live like that". But when I find myself in that situation, I don't want to die but can't express that? Maybe I'm overthinking it.
    I don't think at this point I would want to create a detailed advance directive. There are so many variables in brain injury/damage. I believe every case is individual. If the same event that happened to Terri happened to us, I believe it is possible that we could all have a different effect. We just don't know what that girl perceives or what is going on in her mind!
    Is she aware of what is happening? Is she blissfully unaware, or is she screaming inside for them not to do this to her?
    I believe I will take the same approach I have taken to organ donation. Leave it up to my family to judge my situation and trust them to make the best decision they can, with God's help. I would fully expect my husband to work together with my dad and siblings (and children if old enough) to make decisions for me in case of not being able to make my own decisions.

    I am appalled that they refuse to offer her PO feeds. Since when did depriving a person of the basic need to be fed become OK??? I can sort of see debate over tube or parenteral feeding.......but PO???
    I think if I was a nurse in that home, I would be seeking legal consultation of my own. Because if I thought the girl should be fed I couldn't just "follow orders" and deprive her. What a situation for the nurses caught in the middle!
    Apparently to provide basic PO feeds would be a violation of court order.
  13. by   moosemnurse
    The hardest decision to make is not starting or stopping artifical feeding. My father had Alzheimer's disease and could not swallow without aspirating. The hospital doctor recommended a feeding tube. My mother was POA for my Dad in this decision. As I am the family nurse she looked to me for guidance. The decision was made by by Dad in his Living Will written when he was well. It very clearly stated no to artifical food/fluids in the event of no future meaningful life. This document made the decision easier for my Mom as she followed his wishes.
    This realy makes the case for a Living Will and I hope all of you have one so you are never in the position that Terri and her family are experiencing. My heart goes out to all of them

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