Are anti-vaccine people conspiracy theorists generally? - page 11

I have an old friend from years ago who I now keep in touch with on Facebook. Her posts are fascinating in the amazing variety of conspiracy theories, some outrageous, some maybe partially true.... Read More

  1. by   wtbcrna
    Quote from FolksBtrippin
    I'm going to forgive you for using the word ridiculous when attempting to counter my points because you clearly did not understand me, but if it happens again, our discussion will end.

    I didn't make an analogy.

    My discussion points are not about efficacy or even about safety.

    My discussion points are not about whether or not we have ample evidence to advocate for flu shots for everyone.

    My discussion points are about what I think is required morally and ethically to override an individual's decision on what goes into his/her body.

    On that topic, my point is: The benefit to the community and certainty of benefit must be overwhelmingly great and the certainty of safety to the individual must be overwhelmingly great to justify overriding a person's decision on what goes into his/her body.

    And I don't think we are meeting that, or that we're even close when it comes to the flu shot.
    Asking for a hundred years of evidence before there is enough evidence to suggest something is safe is ridiculous. So I stand by my original statement.
    It is ethical to mandate public health standards and practices for everyone when the lack of compliance by a minority of people can have a significant impact on the majority of people in that society. This especially true when the health standard, such as vaccines, has well documented significantly high safety profile.
  2. by   BostonFNP
    Quote from FolksBtrippin
    The benefit to the community and certainty of benefit must be overwhelmingly great and the certainty of safety to the individual must be overwhelmingly great to justify overriding a person's decision on what goes into his/her body.

    And I don't think we are meeting that, or that we're even close when it comes to the flu shot.
    What makes you think that vaccines are not overwhelmingly safe or effective? Please share your sources.
  3. by   JenTheSchoolRN
    Quote from Kooky Korky
    To me abstinence means any and all sexual contact - vaginal, oral, anal, whatever. How do you define it in your classes? Or are you allowed to even say the word? Or introduce the concept of waiting to have sex until married? Thank you for the kind tone of your reply. Glad your friend is doing well.
    Of course I'm allowed to say the word! I say it a lot, to be honest, and have lessons built around it. Your second question makes an assumption about comprehensive sex education when it comes to abstinence. Comprehensive sex education includes abstinence teaching. Abstinence is the healthiest choice a middle or high school student can make (the grade levels I teach). I've mentioned this in another thread, but comprehensive sex education teaching and abstinence teaching do want the same thing ultimately: children to be healthy and they both teach that abstinence is the healthiest option for them.

    Since you asked, I define abstinence is my class as voluntarily choosing not to engage in any sexual behavior (such as vaginal, anal, and oral intercourse) that could result in a pregnancy or STI. But you mention all sexual contact - some folks believe kissing is sexual contact. I also acknowledge this as again, abstinence will mean different things to different people.

    It is not my place to tell someone when they should or should not have sex and what is right or wrong. I do, however, present students with questions they can ask themselves when they are thinking about having sex to see if they feel fully ready for any consequences (negative or positive) that can occur after having sex.

    I use terms "healthy" and "unhealthy" when I teach sex education. Right and wrong are value words and my personal values have no place in a sex education classroom.

    But I'm getting off-topic on vaccines. I do mention the HPV vaccine when teaching about STIs because it relevant. But again, I do not voice my opinion for or against it, just the facts about it. But a majority of the students I teach have voiced that they have already started or finished getting the HPV vaccine.
    Last edit by JenTheSchoolRN on Oct 27, '17 : Reason: grammar matters
  4. by   BSNbeDONE
    Here's my $.02.
    I'm not against the flu vaccine. I'm against being forced to take it by holding my job over my head. If the vaccine is ‘that' important, then pass the necessary laws to make EVERYONE take it, including the garbage man and the Wal-Mart volunteer.

    Every single year, I watch my dad and brothers get that injection and later suffer for a week or two with the flu. Every single year, I go to check on them to see how they're doing and if they need anything, yet I remain flu-free.

    Here lately, I've been forced to take the shot or find another job. Why are people so eager to take away another's right to choose? As a patient, I can refuse life-saving measures. As a healthcare worker, I can refuse this same life-saving measures, but not that darn 60-ish %-effective flu vaccine???

    In my family, the flu vaccine is 100% INEFFECTIVE. But it is their right to have it. As a nurse in this same family, I don't have the right to NOT have it. THAT is what I have a problem with!! Thank God for a strong immune system.

    I, as my mom's caregiver, do not allow anyone to give her the flu vaccine because she was refusing it when she was making her own decisions. As a dependent now with all of her chronic illnesses (DM, HTN, etc), she has YET to contract the flu.

    I respect the work that the CDC does. But they are JUST people who are not above making mistakes like the rest of us. Every single patient that I've had who refused the vaccine, did so because they said they got the flu a week later. So, they exercise their right to refuse.

    Do you guys tell them that the vaccine did what it was supposed to do? That we ‘gave' them the flu at a charge so that they couldn't go out and catch it for free?

    This point of view may upset some of you. But this has been and continues to be my eye-witness experience every year that members of my family ‘choose’ to take that injection. The flu vaccine is not effective on everyone, and it doesn’t know which of its recipients wear scrubs. So why MANDATE everyone in healthcare to take it? Because you can??? What other rights will we handover to the powers-that-be?
    Last edit by BSNbeDONE on Oct 27, '17
  5. by   Kooky Korky
    Quote from BSNbeDONE
    Here's my $.02.
    I'm not against the flu vaccine. I'm against being forced to take it by holding my job over my head. If the vaccine is ‘that' important, then pass the necessary laws to make EVERYONE take it, including the garbage man and the Wal-Mart volunteer.

    Every single year, I watch my dad and brothers get that injection and later suffer for a week or two with the flu. Every single year, I go to check on them to see how they're doing and if they need anything, yet I remain flu-free.

    Here lately, I've been forced to take the shot or find another job. Why are people so eager to take away another's right to choose? As a patient, I can refuse life-saving measures. As a healthcare worker, I can refuse this same life-saving measures, but not that darn 60-ish %-effective flu vaccine???

    In my family, the flu vaccine is 100% INEFFECTIVE. But it is their right to have it. As a nurse in this same family, I don't have the right to NOT have it. THAT is what I have a problem with!! Thank God for a strong immune system.

    I, as my mom's caregiver, do not allow anyone to give her the flu vaccine because she was refusing it when she was making her own decisions. As a dependent now with all of her chronic illnesses (DM, HTN, etc), she has YET to contract the flu.

    I respect the work that the CDC does. But they are JUST people who are not above making mistakes like the rest of us. Every single patient that I've had who refused the vaccine, did so because they said they got the flu a week later. So, they exercise their right to refuse.

    Do you guys tell them that the vaccine did what it was supposed to do? That we ‘gave' them the flu at a charge so that they couldn't go out and catch it for free?

    This point of view may upset some of you. But this has been and continues to be my eye-witness experience every year that members of my family ‘choose' to take that injection. The flu vaccine is not effective on everyone, and it doesn't know which of its recipients wear scrubs. So why MANDATE everyone in healthcare to take it? Because you can??? What other rights will we handover to the powers-that-be?
    Exactly.

    Why the forcing? Power, greed, controlling the populace. And yes, this flu shot business is only the tip of the iceberg wih regard to Big Brother and his tentacles.
  6. by   BostonFNP
    Quote from BSNbeDONE
    Every single year, I watch my dad and brothers get that injection and later suffer for a week or two with the flu. Every single year, I go to check on them to see how they're doing and if they need anything, yet I remain flu-free.
    It is impossible to get the flu from the inactivated flu vaccine.

    Quote from BSNbeDONE
    Here lately, I've been forced to take the shot or find another job. Why are people so eager to take away another's right to choose? As a patient, I can refuse life-saving measures. As a healthcare worker, I can refuse this same life-saving measures, but not that darn 60-ish %-effective flu vaccine???
    If you choose not to have life-saving measures the result is you die. If you choose to not have the flu shot the result is you have to wear a mask or get fired. It is a choice with a consequence in both cases is it not?

    Quote from BSNbeDONE
    In my family, the flu vaccine is 100% INEFFECTIVE. But it is their right to have it. As a nurse in this same family, I don't have the right to NOT have it. THAT is what I have a problem with!! Thank God for a strong immune system.
    Have your family members been tested for lab-confirmed influenza, because as above, you can not get the flu from the inactivated vaccine, so you are basing your choice on two things that are wrong. Again, it also doesn't have anything to do with a strong immune system: you didn't catch the "flu"from your family members because the didn't have the flu.

    Quote from BSNbeDONE
    I, as my mom's caregiver, do not allow anyone to give her the flu vaccine because she was refusing it when she was making her own decisions. As a dependent now with all of her chronic illnesses (DM, HTN, etc), she has YET to contract the flu.
    She may never catch the flu even if she never has the vaccine, but if she does (or you do and pass it to her) she is at a higher risk of complications including death. If both of you are ok with that, its your choice. Again, if I had a 60% chance of not passing a potentially deadly illness to my parent, it would be worth it to me to have a very safe vaccine.

    Quote from BSNbeDONE
    I respect the work that the CDC does. But they are JUST people who are not above making mistakes like the rest of us. Every single patient that I've had who refused the vaccine, did so because they said they got the flu a week later. So, they exercise their right to refuse.
    Again, you can not catch the flu from the inactivated vaccine. It's impossible. If as a healthcare professional you allow people to think that then you are negligent to your duty.

    People make mistakes, sure, but that why we rely on the scientific method.

    Quote from BSNbeDONE
    This point of view may upset some of you. But this has been and continues to be my eye-witness experience every year that members of my family ‘choose' to take that injection. The flu vaccine is not effective on everyone, and it doesn't know which of its recipients wear scrubs. So why MANDATE everyone in healthcare to take it? Because you can??? What other rights will we handover to the powers-that-be?
    I don't think anyone will be upset. Embarrassed, saddened, concerned sure. Seriously consider your position on this because what you cite as the foundation of your argument is without a doubt absolutely false.
  7. by   BostonFNP
    Quote from Kooky Korky
    Power, greed, controlling the populace.
    And here again we have proof for the OP on the original topic of the thread.
  8. by   Kooky Korky
    Quote from LibraSunCNM
    No, it's because you clearly have not grasped and/or accepted basic foundational concepts of science, and throw random straw man arguments about your religious beliefs into the discussion in order to try to distract us from this.
    I am not attempting to do anything except express an opinion.

    I do not blindly accept "basic, foundational concepts of science" because I don't have the luxury of not having heard/read information that contradicts some of these so-called basics.
    Not being aware of differing views is bliss. I don't have that bliss.

    We all know that doctors make mistakes. Parents who love their children beyond measure make mistakes. Surgeons throw and break costly instruments. Judges, lawyers, etc. all are human, fallible, and put their pants on one leg at a time. So do CDC and other scientists and "experts".

    I wish I could blindly believe everything peer-reviewed journals or government spokespeople tell us. It would be a joy to just relax in the trust that many here have in those in authority. But I can't do that. I have, happily or not, had my consciousness raised.

    What random straw man arguments about my religious beliefs did I throw out?

    Check out Alex Jones.
    Last edit by Kooky Korky on Oct 27, '17
  9. by   Kooky Korky
    Quote from klone
    It's much harder to overturn Supreme Court decisions than it is to create new legislation.
    Hence the mess we have.
  10. by   elkpark
    Quote from Kooky Korky
    Check out Alex Jones.
    Surely you jest. Are you referencing Alex Jones as a source for your alternative views, or are you offering him up as a contrast to yourself, as an example of someone who is actually a conspiracy theorist as opposed to you?
  11. by   BostonFNP
    Quote from Kooky Korky
    I do not blindly accept "basic, foundational concepts of science" because I don't have the luxury of not having heard/read information that contradicts some of these so-called basics.
    What have you read that contradicts vaccine safety and efficacy? Please list the sources here so we can all read.
  12. by   klone
    Quote from Kooky Korky
    Hence the mess we have.
    This is not a debate about abortion. Please start a new thread if you wish to discuss that topic.
  13. by   wtbcrna

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