Another rant regarding MA's and Nurses

[samirish]

I know I've read on here multiple times regarding MA's calling themselves nurses but now its not even the ma's but the doctor's office they work in calling them nurses. I feel this is so misleading and done deliberately. I called my doctors office today (she is part of the Advocate system here in Illinois) and the recording said "press 2 to speak with a nurse" so I pressed 2 and the person answering my call said "Hi this is Ashley, can I help you?". Well after spending a few minutes telling her my issue and her giving me advice I said "You are a nurse.....right?"

She went on to explain that no she isnt a nurse but a ma. When I asked to speak to a nurse instead, she said they don't have any that work there, they only have ma's.

Is this reportable? I felt really misled by the office recording and I'm sure other patients think they are talking to a nurse when in fact they are talking to a ma.

[PsychNurseWannaBe, BSN, RN]

Medical Assistants DO have a scope of practice, I'm not sure where you are looking at, but if you look on the Govt. website...http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos164.htm it says what medical assistants can do.

That is not a statue or law but merely a job description of what MAs can do but it is broad based. You should not rely on that for what you can and can not do as the state determines this.

For example... this tells you what you can specifically do, however, if you move states, then you would have to check with that state.

(http://www.mbc.ca.gov/allied/medical_assistants_questions.html#2)

[PsychNurseWannaBe, BSN, RN]

Having CNA and MA experience will definitely compliment your skills and learning but both are roles that are supervised by someone who is licensed. Neither role can assess. That will be a huge transition for you, as well as, more advanced skills that are invasive as you move forward in your nursing education. Good Luck!!

[PsychNurseWannaBe, BSN, RN]

I think the reason BON's do not go after MA's referring themselves as nurses is because MA's are certified, licensed or whatever (depending on the state) by the Medical Board, not nursing, so they do not have any say in the matter.

It depends on the state. For example, in WI anyone who says they are a nurse and are not can be penalized with a fine or jail time. I don't know if they go in front of the BON or if the BON refers it to another agency to do the prosecuting.

[OCNRN63, RN]

When I worked in home care and hospice, I routinely had MAs say they were "the nurse" when I would call a doctor's office to speak to a nurse about a patient. It got to the point that I had to start saying, "Are you an RN or an LPN?" I knew they were lying when they started stammering. A few I busted to the doc, depending on how irritated I was. I'm sure nothing was done, but at least I let it be known there were staff there who were lying.

[kcmylorn]

I found discussion on this on the the New York State Nursing Associations's website. It's a position statement on Utilizing UAP's. I am not from NY state. I do not work in NY state but all states have the same verbiage on this subject. It's the Nursing Practice Act- and they do not differ much. The key points of this document( The Nursing Practice Act) are : Critical thinking, decision making and judgment.

The legal issue in telephone triage as "ashley"describes is Taking the patients signs and symptoms, repeating it to the provider, and then repeating the provider's response to the patient. Alot can happen in that act of communication=paraphrasing.

Another question to Ashley- how much of your MA anatomy and physiology, microbiology,chemistry, pharmacology courses are excepted for credit or advanced placed into your nursing program? Is it an RN nursing program or an LPN nursing program?

[BacktoBasics]

medical assistants do have a scope of practice, i'm not sure where you are looking at, but if you look on the govt. website...http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos164.htm it says what medical assistants can do.

on another official site it states what is the scope of practice of a medical assistant? in some states medical assistants have a clearly stated scope of practice, but in some states there is no law on the matter" (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/580647_2)

i see where you're attempting to look for your information but no where on the bls site does it state what you "scope of practice" is. it lists things that you do. you can find the same thing for a cashier, does that mean they have a "scope of practice"

?

unfortunately i do not know what the medscape article states since i do not have access. if you provide the name and authors i'm sure i can find it.

that is what we do. if you wish not to speak with an ma you can always ask to leave a message for the doctor to specifically call you back. you don't have to speak with them.

but the issue arises when the impression is that you're speaking with a nurse- you're not told they an ma unless it's asked.

as far as stating ma's knowledge is as far as knowing how to take an accurate bp is harsh and it's ignorance on people's part to believe that. i don't have a certificate, i have an associates in medical assisting from an accredited junior college. i have taken an passed with a 3.8 gpa total in : pharmacology, a&p 1,2, microbology, lifespan,english comp,chemistry, my course also had x-ray,ekg and phlebotomy. a lot of medical assistants start off this way to make sure they are certain ths is what they want to do.

starting off that way doesn't make sense. you went to school for two years, for something you don't need a degree for, and yet you could have received an actual nursing degree in the same amount of time. to me it seems like a waste of time and money.

and there's a difference between belittling and telling the truth. "

in summary, medical assistants are not licensed, and it is not legal to use them to replace highly trained, licensed professionals. the medical assistant is present to assist and perform basic supportive services in the physician's office" (the medical board of california, 2011).

the medical board of california. (2011). is your medical assistant practicing beyond his or her scope of training? retrieved from http://www.mbc.ca.gov/allied/medical_assistants_training.html.

[BuckyBadgerRN, ASN, RN]

i see where you're attempting to look for your information but no where on the bls site does it state what you "scope of practice" is. it lists things that you do. you can find the same thing for a cashier, does that mean they have a "scope of practice"

?

unfortunately i do not know what the medscape article states since i do not have access. if you provide the name and authors i'm sure i can find it.

but the issue arises when the impression is that you're speaking with a nurse- you're not told they an ma unless it's asked.

starting off that way doesn't make sense. you went to school for two years, for something you don't need a degree for, and yet you could have received an actual nursing degree in the same amount of time. to me it seems like a waste of time and money.

and there's a difference between belittling and telling the truth. "

in summary, medical assistants are not licensed, and it is not legal to use them to replace highly trained, licensed professionals. the medical assistant is present to assist and perform basic supportive services in the physician's office" (the medical board of california, 2011).

the medical board of california. (2011). is your medical assistant practicing beyond his or her scope of training? retrieved from http://www.mbc.ca.gov/allied/medical_assistants_training.html.

ok, i thought that was odd too! she has an associates degree as a non-licensed ma? i believe (and i know i'll be corrected if i'm wrong) that associates degrees typically take 2 years to complete and in that period of time you can have an adn degree completed, be licensed as a nurse and there'd be no confusion when she answers the phone...

[Kaligirl02, ADN, BSN, MSN, LVN, RN, APRN, NP]

I wasn't completely sure I wanted to be a nurse, so I did the MA program instead. My cousin went straight for her BSN and hated it. I didn't want to do the samething. A ADN does take two years to complete, but in California there is a huge waiting list. My best friend has been on it for two years and works at the mall. I would prefer getting experience in a health care seething so I did the Ma route.

To me it seems like the OP and some other posters are bashing the profession. I could understand if she was upset about the MA calling herself a nurse and ranting on that, but to attack the profession sucks. It is belittling the profession. What makes sense to one person may not make sense to another and that's ok. I didn't waste money or time I have a lot of knowledge to help me when I finish school. I have always been the crawl before you walk type of person, and this is the route I took.

So I'm assuming that doing a two year lpn/LVN would be a waste of time as well to some? If everyone goes straight to RN it would get congested. I would prefer a nurse who is well rounded and I think.... No I know, that's what's going to make me a darn good nurse and a CNM.

[PsychNurseWannaBe, BSN, RN]

I wasn't completely sure I wanted to be a nurse, so I did the MA program instead. My cousin went straight for her BSN and hated it. I didn't want to do the samething. A ADN does take two years to complete, but in California there is a huge waiting list. My best friend has been on it for two years and works at the mall. I would prefer getting experience in a health care seething so I did the Ma route.

To me it seems like the OP and some other posters are bashing the profession. I could understand if she was upset about the MA calling herself a nurse and ranting on that, but to attack the profession sucks. It is belittling the profession. What makes sense to one person may not make sense to another and that's ok. I didn't waste money or time I have a lot of knowledge to help me when I finish school. I have always been the crawl before you walk type of person, and this is the route I took.

So I'm assuming that doing a two year lpn/LVN would be a waste of time as well to some? If everyone goes straight to RN it would get congested. I would prefer a nurse who is well rounded and I think.... No I know, that's what's going to make me a darn good nurse and a CNM.

I think it really comes down to nurses being frustrated with the way either an organization and/or MAs are either passively or actively allowing people to assume that they are talking with a nurse when they are not. If someone refers to you as a nurse and you correct them, no harm, no foul.

Truly as a MA when someone calls the clinic you should take the information, pass it along to the Doc, he then tells you what to say and you inform the patient. Of course that isn't your only role. But if you are giving information prior to speaking with the doctor, then you are triaging, even if you follow up with a doc afterwards.

MAs are beneficial to clinics because they assist doctors with additional tasks like you mentioned previously. MAs belong to the medical model since you are reporting to the doc and he/she is supervising what you are doing. But MAs should not be replacing nurses. MAs if utilized should be added as a part of the team, but not substitution for nurses because it is cheaper. Because when it comes down to it, nurses can do everything an MA can do and a lot more.

As you have seen, this topic can get heated very quickly... again it is due to frustration. It happens with the nonstop endless what's the difference between an LPN and an RN and when people try to explain the legal differences some LPNs get offended. Then you will have someone ask what's the difference between and RN with an ADN and one with a BSN and again, the topic gets heated. And as you have seen by another poster, should a NP refer to themselves as doctor if they have a DNP and then it gets heated. And hell why I am at it, let's throw in the differences between a NP and a PA and guess what... things get heated.

There is nothing wrong with becoming an MA first and then deciding that you wish to do nursing. That's the path you wanted to take... so be it. This post wasn't supposed to be about that. It was supposed to be a rant as it is titled. And well.... it snowballed from there as these posts normally do.

[Kaligirl02, ADN, BSN, MSN, LVN, RN, APRN, NP]

LoL, well if we didn't get heated about our particular craft and didn't show passion we shouldn't be in the medical field.

Happy Holidays Nurses!!

[kcmylorn]

An MA calling themselve or allowing patient's to continue to call,adress or referrto them as a 'nurse", is a criminal act of fraud- as the position statement from the NYSNA clearly, in plain English , states. An MA performing telephone triage is also illegal-also punishable by law- fine or imprisonment, that is also clearly stated in plain English.

I believe the best analogy was presented above. The Dept of Labor has job descriptions and lists tasks for every possible job in the US, the example of the cashier. This is not a "scope of practice" nor is a cashier a "profession" The same can be said for garbage collectors- do they now have a "scope of practice and want to be labeled as a "profession"( sanitation engineer?") what about housewife, excuse me stay at home mom or domestic engineer- Does this make them "engineers" Does this qualify them to apply for a job at Locheed Martin or the aerospace program? It's a matter of stoking an ego. Which in this case is illegal.

My stand is: it's fraud and should be dealt with as such. The laws are in place for this to appen if nursing would grow a backbone and start demading they were enforced like the doctors do. People who go around misrepresenting them selves, allowing themselves to be called doctor and treating patients( carrying out physician tasks) under this mascarade get procecuted, sent to jail for a few years AND fined- it is a felony criminal act. MA's, UAP(unlicensed assitance personnel) performing telephone triage is a criminal act. MA's UAP's are unlicensed. A certificate is not a license. The Nursing Practice Act in the United States(all 50 of them) clearly states that in plain English.

[kcmylorn]

It is not"more patient friendly " to allow patients to think they are communicating with a licensed qualified "Nurse" when infact they are communicating and obtaining serious health information from a MA with a trade school vocational training program. This is fraud- a crime, a crime that is classified as 'a crime of dishonesty', a crime, that if convicted of,not only does it carry a prison term and fine, but also, that person will not be able to seek gainful employment again. You will be unemployable. It will have to be reported on job applications because it is a felony. It is reportable on college applications and is up to the college aka nursing program if they want to admit you to.It is reportable on applications for RN licensure- don't take my word for it- google the Board of Nusing in any one of your favorite 50 states and read the RN nursing license endorsement application."Have you ever been convicted of a crime?, a felony? oddly enough, some states don't want to know about marajuana convictions? but they do want to know about felonies?

I will report any MA, nursing assistant, tech or any UAP I hear allowing a patient to call them a 'Nurse"or calling themself a 'Nurse

I will call the Board of Nursing in my state.It is fraud and there is a Nursing Practice Actwith clear language to back me up. I will not have my license in jeapordy for any UAP who wants to play "Nurse"

It is my assumption- the nursing program you say you are in, did not accept your chemisty,anatomy and physiology, microbiology and pharamacology courses because those courses were not indepth enough.

I think the logic is turned around- it has nothing to do with "belittling" it has to do with pointing out why MA's are not Nurses- educational preparation- the 2 course of study are worlds apart. One teaches "tasks" the other teaching decision making and critical thinking skills. 2 different realms.