A step towards "universal health care" run by the government? - page 8

search results - thomas (library of congress):: the text of the bill has not been published yet, but this looks like one more step towards universal health care. what do you think?... Read More

  1. by   JeanettePNP
    Quote from EJM
    There is plenty of outcry against socialized education. The homeschooling and private school parents believe that they can provide a better education for their child with no costs to the taxpayer, and research proves they are right. They also have private libraries. As for the highways and police, that is part of the governments job description.
    I guess you want to go back to the not-so-distant past when only the children of the rich were educated and the poor were mostly illiterate. And if you had the money to afford lots of books, you could be well-read, but the public could just be entertained by the wandering minstrel.

    The fact is that as much as socialism has been proven not to work, pure free market capitalism hasn't worked too well throughout history either. Without some rules and regulations there is nothing to prevent the ruling class from taking advantage of the workers. I keep hearing the argument that if you work hard and plan well you will never go hungry or be without insurance but anyone with just the slightest bit of life experience will tell you that it just doesn't work that way.

    The reason that we have public schools and libraries and parks etc., even though some free market purists think we can do without them, is that We the People decided that it's a worthwhile investment of public funds to ensure that we have a well-educated public with access to good literature. Yes I know the American public school system is not that great and we're not a very literate people but without the public schools many more of us would be illiterate.

    Having a healthy populace is a worthwhile investment of public funds. When people don't get the healthcare they need, they end up being less productive and eventually will cost society a lot more than they would have if their basic healthcare was covered by the government.
  2. by   GardenDove
    Good points Chaya
  3. by   talaxandra
    Quote from ChayaN
    The reason that we have public schools and libraries and parks etc., even though some free market purists think we can do without them, is that We the People decided that it's a worthwhile investment of public funds to ensure that we have a well-educated public with access to good literature. <snip>

    Having a healthy populace is a worthwhile investment of public funds. When people don't get the healthcare they need, they end up being less productive and eventually will cost society a lot more than they would have if their basic healthcare was covered by the government.
    :yeahthat:
    A healthier public means a healthier work force. An educated public is one that increases productivity and innovation - and one that is better able to question the status quo.

    I've read a lot of responses arguing that the Canadian and European experiences are variously flawed, tainted by their political past, or somehow subsidised by the US. Any thoughts on the Australian/NZ system?
  4. by   hope3456
    Quote from ChayaN
    I guess you want to go back to the not-so-distant past when only the children of the rich were educated and the poor were mostly illiterate. And if you had the money to afford lots of books, you could be well-read, but the public could just be entertained by the wandering minstrel.

    The fact is that as much as socialism has been proven not to work, pure free market capitalism hasn't worked too well throughout history either. Without some rules and regulations there is nothing to prevent the ruling class from taking advantage of the workers. I keep hearing the argument that if you work hard and plan well you will never go hungry or be without insurance but anyone with just the slightest bit of life experience will tell you that it just doesn't work that way.

    The reason that we have public schools and libraries and parks etc., even though some free market purists think we can do without them, is that We the People decided that it's a worthwhile investment of public funds to ensure that we have a well-educated public with access to good literature. Yes I know the American public school system is not that great and we're not a very literate people but without the public schools many more of us would be illiterate.

    Having a healthy populace is a worthwhile investment of public funds. When people don't get the healthcare they need, they end up being less productive and eventually will cost society a lot more than they would have if their basic healthcare was covered by the government.

    Excellent post Chaya - I don't think comparing education to health care is a fair comparison. I was homeschooled/private schooled up until 10th grade and I am no better off than anyone who went to public school .......but that is off the subject. Would love to debate it on another post!

    I just wish we didn't have to be so dependant upon employers for health insurance.

    I think that this is what needs to change, along with how our labor market has changed. More people now are self employed, work contract jobs, work for small businesses, ect, than did probably 20 - 30 years ago. I suspect that alot of these people are making a relatively decent income - could contribute something into some kind of risk pool - but private ins. is still just prohitively expensive to them. What is so wrong with thinking that this population should have better access to a health insurance policy??

    Maybe universal care isnt the answer, but major changes need to be made to our present health care delivery system. I think that our policy makers should be able to figure something out. And in saying this, I don't believe that health care should be 'free' but it shouldnt be cost prohibitive, either.

    I suspect that the reason nothing is being done to this effect is b/c of the lobbying power of the health insurance and pharmaceutical companies.
    Last edit by hope3456 on Dec 11, '06
  5. by   hope3456
    Quote from ingelein
    Oh my goodness yes, I am so spoiled while I sit here in pain from the DDD and DJD in spine and DJD of bilat knees.Cant have needed surgery , no health insurance!!Not enough money for my meds.Need groceries, may have to try to get a ride to the food pantry, since my car got reposessed. Couldnt afford COBRA.Gone BROKE waiting to be approved for Social Security Disability. This thread has evolved into foolish pratter about how spoiled and lucky we are, ask those who are not so lucky right here in this country, see what they have to say, jeesh.


    Thought you may be interested to know that a growing number of uninsured, working class American citizens are now going to India to have joint replacements done...at a fraction of the cost of what it costs in America for the same surgery. Sounds like they are getting good results. That is what I have read, anyway. Check it out!

    Not saying that it is right, but it sounds as though this practice is becoming more popular. Hmmmm......
  6. by   sunnyjohn
    Quote from ChayaN
    .... I keep hearing the argument that if you work hard and plan well you will never go hungry or be without insurance but anyone with just the slightest bit of life experience will tell you that it just doesn't work that way.

    ......
    :yeahthat: So true.
  7. by   outcomesfirst
    Quote from ingelein
    Oh my goodness yes, I am so spoiled while I sit here in pain from the DDD and DJD in spine and DJD of bilat knees.Cant have needed surgery , no health insurance!!Not enough money for my meds.Need groceries, may have to try to get a ride to the food pantry, since my car got reposessed. Couldnt afford COBRA.Gone BROKE waiting to be approved for Social Security Disability. This thread has evolved into foolish pratter about how spoiled and lucky we are, ask those who are not so lucky right here in this country, see what they have to say, jeesh.
    Just curious Ingelein, not trying to disparage you or anything and let me say at the start - I am sorry for your troubles. From other posts you seem intelligent, thoughtful and concerned, so I have just a few questions to try to understand what seems to be a frequent occurrance, especially with nurses. And if you have posted this elsewhere, I don't think I have seen it. So here goes:
    When did you find out about your degenerative diseases?
    What have you been doing to treat them?
    Are you otherwise healthy? Weight, diet, no-smoking, no substance abuse?
    Do/Did you have any savings? Retirement? Investments?
    Do you have any family support? Are you supporting a family?
    Did you work before? How did you lose your job? Can you work now? In the future?
    I appreciate the information. Bad things happen to good people. Sharing this information helps everyone to understand. I use to know of an organization that specifically helps nurses. I am going to dig in my files and see if I can find it. Good Luck and best wishes.
  8. by   blueyesue
    Quote from ChayaN
    I keep hearing the argument that if you work hard and plan well you will never go hungry or be without insurance but anyone with just the slightest bit of life experience will tell you that it just doesn't work that way.
    Education and hard work does not guarantee you a problem free life. With respect to you, if you do work hard and plan well, you may run into obstacles, but you have an excellent chance of pulling through. If however you are an able bodied citizen, and choose to be lazy, not further your education, and live off others, you have a higher chance of going hungry and have a much lower chance of "making it." This is common sense. :spin:
  9. by   GardenDove
    I don't think basic healthcare should be predicated on one having furthered their educations. Higher education is not a basic responsiblity that a citizen owes society. Some people aren't as intellectually gifted, but still deserve a place in society. We need waitresses, cooks, housekeepers, janitors, 7/11 attendants, etc. We need field workers and gardeners. We're better off if these people have access to healthcare.

    Our current system isn't meeting their needs very well. There are huge gaps in healthcare in the United States. Can you believe, now the government is talking about a space station on the moon by 2020, yet your local citizen who works at the 7/11 doesn't have health insurence.
    Last edit by GardenDove on Dec 11, '06 : Reason: inept typing
  10. by   blueyesue
    I hear you. I wish we could all have insurance. I don't know, maybe the system of sharing medical costs is the answer. Something similar to this:

    When his wife spent a week in Georgetown University Hospital's intensive care unit last year recovering from life-saving brain surgery, Joe Huff never worried about who would pay her $120,000 hospital bill, even though his family has no health insurance.

    Huff, a 52-year-old Laytonsville, Md. real estate agent, said he trusted that a bill-sharing cooperative of evangelical Christians he joined 10 years ago -- and to which he faithfully mailed a $346 monthly check -- would come through, just as it had when the youngest of the couple's seven children was hospitalized with spinal meningitis two years ago.

    After a $250 deductible, Huff said, Christian Care Medi-Share paid for everything. "We also got about 20 cards and letters from people saying they were praying for us," he added.

    Huff and his family are among the 60,000 members of Medi-Share, the largest of a little-known group of nonprofit organizations that market themselves as faith-based alternatives to health insurance.

    The half-dozen plans, which claim a total membership of more than 120,000 Americans, are especially popular in the South.

    The appeal of these "church plans," as they are known in the insurance industry, is both economic and religious. Because their monthly cost is roughly half that of conventional health insurance premiums, they appeal to those who find medical insurance difficult or impossible to afford. And because their membership is strictly limited to evangelical Christians certified as regular churchgoers by their pastors, they cater to people opposed to "subsidizing high-risk, sinful lifestyles," in the words of Medi-Share's Web site.
    Evangelical Faithful Band Together to Pay Each Others' Medical Expenses | theledger.com

    Maybe other groups of people could form something similar. I don't know. Hopefully we will find the answer soon. :spin:

    To Add: Here is the breakdown of costs:
    Medi-Share since 1993 - The Official Site; Affordable, Biblical, Healthcare sharing program.
    Last edit by blueyesue on Dec 11, '06
  11. by   MultipurposeRN
    Forgive me, I haven't read very many posts. In regards to this proposed law, our hospital has a disproportionate share of charity as it is.
  12. by   CRNAorBust
    No matter what this law entails in its details our government is way out of line . We've been bordering on Socialism for a long long time. The common good is not the RIGHT good. When will people realize that you can't do all things for all people. Many people have to do the right things for THEMSELVES. And if they can't and someone can lend them a hand then fine. But once the government starts dictating who when and how those who can't help themselves should be helped that's a HUGE loss of FREEDOM. Helping others at the cost of personal choice is NOT what our founding fathers had in mind.

    Just my 02 cents.
  13. by   Simplepleasures
    Quote from outcomesfirst
    Just curious Ingelein, not trying to disparage you or anything and let me say at the start - I am sorry for your troubles. From other posts you seem intelligent, thoughtful and concerned, so I have just a few questions to try to understand what seems to be a frequent occurrance, especially with nurses. And if you have posted this elsewhere, I don't think I have seen it. So here goes:
    When did you find out about your degenerative diseases?
    What have you been doing to treat them?
    Are you otherwise healthy? Weight, diet, no-smoking, no substance abuse?
    Do/Did you have any savings? Retirement? Investments?
    Do you have any family support? Are you supporting a family?
    Did you work before? How did you lose your job? Can you work now? In the future?
    I appreciate the information. Bad things happen to good people. Sharing this information helps everyone to understand. I use to know of an organization that specifically helps nurses. I am going to dig in my files and see if I can find it. Good Luck and best wishes.
    Thanks for your interest and concern. I will try to make this as short as I can.

    Was LPN in LTC for 27 years, squeeky clean record, lost my job because I refused to falsify a document, was promptly fired, reported employer before and after firing to the state,am protected by whistleblower law, have case in the court system.

    DDD,DJD started in earnest about 5 years before I was fired, progressivly worsened, but was still able to work on my dementia unit as it was less physical than other types of units.

    After being fired tried to work two different jobs( I believe they did not even check my references for these jobs, these places were on a "fast track" with the state).Applied to MANY other LTC with dementia units, was not hired( this was very unusual, I had never been turned down for a job in all the 27 years I was a nurse) .I do believe I am blackballed.I tried to stay at the two LTCs ,but could not keep up physically, not comparable to my last job.

    I applied for Social Security Disability after getting MRI of spine and Xrays of knees that showed severe damage Have other conditions ,controlled by meds, just found out I now have cataract in good eye, blind in other one. No drugs, no smoking, but am overweight.Free clinic is great but they dont do many procedures due to cost.

    Went through meager savings, no investments,no retirement, moved to low income apartment,car repossed,my children supporting me 100%. I was divorced with four children to support, couldnt go back for RN , no time or money, all but one of my kids graduated from college, one is in apprentship.

    I sometimes think that maybe I should have caved in, just did what my employers wanted me to do( falsify document),but then I think that this was really a blessing in disguise, it got me out of the LTC dungeons and I was left with my morals intact.I guess alls well that ends well, I hope my story ends well.
    Last edit by Simplepleasures on Dec 11, '06

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