12-Step Coercion - page 6

the following presentation was given at the may 21, 2004 open forum of the north carolina board of nursing meeting:... Read More

  1. by   mscsrjhm
    Big Babs wrote: "the emphasis with alternative programs should be on TOTAL ABSTINENCE for mood altering substances and it shouldn't matter HOW you maintain that abstinence, the fact that you DO maintain it should be enough......"

    Total and complete agreement here. Punishment is enough for some people. If others want help, let them seek it. If some do not want help, so be it. That is what most would call a "free" country.

    Mschrisco
  2. by   Tweety
    Quote from Mschrisco
    Big Babs wrote: "the emphasis with alternative programs should be on TOTAL ABSTINENCE for mood altering substances and it shouldn't matter HOW you maintain that abstinence, the fact that you DO maintain it should be enough......"

    Total and complete agreement here. Punishment is enough for some people. If others want help, let them seek it. If some do not want help, so be it. That is what most would call a "free" country.

    Mschrisco

    I disagree. Being dry isn't good enough for me. I would want the nurses working with me and taking care of my family to have some sort of counseling and support and a time-limited basis. Not necessarily AA, but something. Agree to disagree?

    When you break the law (stealing narcs) or don't meet the requirements to keep a nursing license (being a practicing alcoholic) then unfortunately some freedom and liberties must be limited for public safety.
    Last edit by Tweety on Jun 11, '04
  3. by   Liddle Noodnik
    [QUOTE=tommyperkins][size=3]Several people here have denied that AA is religious. For those of you who have not read the 12-steps here they are. A fourth grader could easily see that the steps are religious and are a detailed prescription for one’s relationship with their God

    Sounds like it was hard for you. Did you ever check out "Rational Recovery" which does not use the "God" principle? I have no info on it, don't know if it's effective, but it is another resource.
  4. by   mscsrjhm
    Quote from 3rdShiftGuy
    I disagree. Being dry isn't good enough for me. I would want the nurses working with me and taking care of my family to have some sort of counseling and support and a time-limited basis. Not necessarily AA, but something. Agree to disagree?

    When you break the law (stealing narcs) or don't meet the requirements to keep a nursing license (being a practicing alcoholic) then unfortunately some freedom and liberties must be limited for public safety.
    Agree to disagree.

    Mschrisco
  5. by   Liddle Noodnik
    [QUOTE=BabyRN2Be]A relative has been involved in AA and this person has stated that if you wanted, a door knob could be your higher power if you wish. [QUOTE]

    I heard someone share about that at a meeting once -- his doorknob was "George". Hey, it was something outside himself, and it worked!
  6. by   loerith
    Actually what loerith {me} said was this: the emphasis is on finding a Higher Power not just stopping drinking.

    If you have been to more than 3 or 4 AA meetings you should know this.

    Alcohol is only mentioned in the first step.

    God {or Higher Power} is mentioned in steps 2,3,5,6, and 11.

    The Big Book {AA's basic text} says this:

    {and btw I just randomly turned to page 85 and found this}

    "Everyday is a day when we must carry the vision of God's will into all of our activities." How can I best serve Thee-Thy will {not mine} be done." These are thoughts that must go with us constantly. ......... "If we have carefully followed directions, we have begun to sense the flow of His Spirit into us. To some extent we have become God-conscious."

    If that isnt religious I'm a pink Martian moose.


    Peace and Love,
    loerith

    p.s. again....personally I believe in these things. But no one should be mandated into a particular belief system. And the BoN has no right to be above the Constitution.
    Last edit by loerith on Jun 11, '04
  7. by   Big Bab's
    Quote from vwgirl
    ...only because my sponsor has NEVER made me feel like I am at her "mercy or beck and call"; I know some sponsors can be rough, I guess I am just lucky I got a good one. But it's not like being married you know, you can always pick a new one (I've been dumped by a sponsee before, and it was beat, but for the best in the end.) What do you find blasphemous in the meetings you go to? (I'll conceed there is a lot of profanity....)

    Change sponsors??...Only with approval from the program director!!...Blasphemis??...well false deity's for one!!..."You can even use that door knob as your higher power/God.".......and to answer tweety about the Ohio wording, I have seen them use BOTH "impaired nurses" and "garbage" in the media when referring to nurses awaiting discipline or in their "program". :stone
  8. by   Big Bab's
    Quote from 3rdShiftGuy
    I disagree. Being dry isn't good enough for me. I would want the nurses working with me and taking care of my family to have some sort of counseling and support and a time-limited basis. Not necessarily AA, but something. Agree to disagree?

    When you break the law (stealing narcs) or don't meet the requirements to keep a nursing license (being a practicing alcoholic) then unfortunately some freedom and liberties must be limited for public safety.

    Sooooo, even though I'm clean and sober, have been for over 2 years, I NEVER diverted from a patient, NEVER stole meds, NEVER falsified Rx's....I should be punished by having to attend AA/NA meetings???.....What you may not completely understand is that alot of the nurses forced into these "programs" have done NOTHING to break the law, some of us just made the mistake of taking the help that was offered and got NAILED for it!!....In case you're wondering, I have a "chronic pain issue" and became dependent upon stadol nasal spray, but EVERYTHING I took was Rx'd by my Dr. and he knew EVERY dose that I took......I'm by far NOT the only one that ended up in this situation because of circumstances like this. ......and frankly it sucks!
  9. by   Big Bab's
    Many people have mentioned Rational Recovery, which is what I use and love it!...the issue that programs have with RR, and one of the reasons they won't allow us to use it is that RR doesn't have ANY meetings, there is a seminar to get started, but the whole premise is to make a CONSCIOUS DECISION WITH YOURSELF TO NEVER USE AGAIN, we learn "addictive voice recognition techniques" to differentiate between the "addict voice" and ourselves.....but of course for steppers this is too much to fathom (not meant as an insult!, they just don't get it and WON'T believe its possible).....To use this program you have to be brutally honest with yourself about your use such as myself, "I acted like a selfish *** when I took meds I really didn't need at the time!, why??, because I liked the feeling!!"......I recognize this mindset and behavior in myself, I'm NOT diseased!....I was simply a selfish jerk!!!....and it will not happen again!! ............For me, that's it!!
  10. by   Lemonhead
    Quote from mjlrn97
    And why so judgmental toward the boat builders and topless dancers and factory workers---do they have nothing of value to offer, simply because they occupy a lower position on the socioeconomic food chain than you do?

    I rest my case. :stone
    Hmmm, interesting. Why was it a "judgement" call, you ask? It was not a personal judgement call, it was a professional judgement call. They are NOT qualified to provide the mental health therapy that they do as sponsors. And anyone that says they are only there to "listen" is insane. These are the people that we are FORCED, yes, Art, FORCED to divulge some very personal info to..do you want a topless dancer, factory worker or even Donald Trump walking you through this stuff--if you've had a horribly traumatic life, you're gonna have these folks "counsel" you? I don't think so.
    And by the way, I AM a factory worker...and I am NOT qualified to "sponsor" AND provide therapy to the wife beater, the victim of childhood molestation and abuse, or the guy with enough anger problems to blow up a building..and this happens CONSTANTLY in AA. You guys are missing a real critical factor--these "meetings" are not just "support"..there is a huge mental process that you MUST work through, with an unqualified sponsor, in order to show "progress".....
  11. by   vwgirl
    Quote from Big Bab's
    Change sponsors??...Only with approval from the program director!!...Blasphemis??...well false deity's for one!!..."You can even use that door knob as your higher power/God.".......and to answer tweety about the Ohio wording, I have seen them use BOTH "impaired nurses" and "garbage" in the media when referring to nurses awaiting discipline or in their "program". :stone
    If you believe in "God" why don't you use him/it as your Hiigher Power? But then you say in your most recent post that you like RR and they are secularly based. I have never seen false dieties, or any dieties, pushed in NA. I just can't help but wonder if it is radically different depending on what section of the country you are in, cause the program you describe doesn't sound a whole lot like the one I'm in in Jersey. But I am genuinely sorry that you have to go through all this; why did they have such a problem with you taking pain meds, was it affecting your work preformance, or did someone just get a bug up their a**?
  12. by   Liddle Noodnik
    Quote from loerith
    p.s. again....personally I believe in these things. But no one should be mandated into a particular belief system. And the BoN has no right to be above the Constitution.
    Hi Loerith --

    I agree they should offer more options and, knowing that relapse is a possible symptom of the disease, treat THAT accordingly. I assume a certain length of time away from nursing is required? Or does that depend on one's progress. Not asking you personally, but, anyone know?

    It ain't about bad people getting good, it's about sick people getting WELL, and even AA suggests that if one needs "outside" help he/she shouldn't hesitate.

    The God thing (again, LOL!) -- some recommend using GOD as an acronym - G.O.D. being "Group Of Drunks" or "Good Orderly Direction"

    For me personally, it's ALL good.

    There's two ways to look at what happens. A person finds him/herself hitting bottom (this of course doesn't apply to those who make a counting error) and his/her disease, or pain, convinces him that he has a problem. That isn't a bad thing, that's a GOOD thing! It means the only way you can go is UP -- it usually takes a crisis (even if it IS the BON sitting on someone) to convince someone they need help -- God knows, if they are still enjoying it, and it causes no pain, who's gonna want to stop?

    The way I personally looked at it, in hindsight of course (for I wasn't too happy when I was forced to stop drinking and drugging) was that God had paved the way, throughout my life, for my life to change. No, I didn't believe in God at first, but it became clear after the fog lifted that He had something to do with what was happening to me. Anyway, stuff that happened to me in childhood, as a young adult, every drink, every drug, my suicide attempt, ALL of these worked in tandem to bring me to a point where I was on my knees (literally, as in "kneeling before the porcelain God, the White Throne", and spiritually -- admitting that my life was a mess and that I couldn't manage it on my own any longer). Every one of those things that happened were necessary! to enable me to finally look at who I was and why I was "here".

    So again, hitting bottom was a GOOD thing -- and now 18 years later I have had a child, gotten back into nursing, mended long-gone family relationships, experienced what "love" is (haven't gotten the final answer on THAT one yet, LOL!), become the writer I always dreamed of becoming, and most important, found a God of my OWN understanding "who loves me just the way I am, and loves me too much to leave me that way" (that's a Max Lucado paraphrase BTW).

    So anyway, PHEW! where did all THAT come from????? Just want to say that there is a lot of bravery and experience/strength/hope on this thread. I also gained a new perspective of those who are under directives from the BON, WOW! it sounds REALLY HARD~ but maybe necessary in most cases. Good luck and God bless to you all!
  13. by   Tweety
    Quote from Big Bab's
    Sooooo, even though I'm clean and sober, have been for over 2 years, I NEVER diverted from a patient, NEVER stole meds, NEVER falsified Rx's....I should be punished by having to attend AA/NA meetings???.....What you may not completely understand is that alot of the nurses forced into these "programs" have done NOTHING to break the law, some of us just made the mistake of taking the help that was offered and got NAILED for it!!....In case you're wondering, I have a "chronic pain issue" and became dependent upon stadol nasal spray, but EVERYTHING I took was Rx'd by my Dr. and he knew EVERY dose that I took......I'm by far NOT the only one that ended up in this situation because of circumstances like this. ......and frankly it sucks!

    Babs I remember your story from the previous thread several months ago. I do understand that many non-addicts, or people who just smoked a joint at a party get thrown into the programs.

    But again lying, manipulating and denial are rampant in addicts, so when someone admits they need help, or is caught in a random drug screen, and they say they aren't an addict, I'm torn in how to treat that individual. Treatment of course should be individualized.

    But basically, I'm not talking about non-addicts and non-alcholics. I'm talking about addicts and alcoholics. Allowing them to stay dry on their own without counseling or support groups, and through drug screening alone isn't good enough for me. Did I say AA/NA, I don't think I did, if you re-read my posts, I've very supportive of choice in treatment and individualized treatment.

    I agree 100% you shouldn't have been forced into the same programs as hardcore addicts. But I think we have a responsibility to our patients to monitor to assure the help you've asked for is effective. I'm totally against the "one size fits all" method of treatment.

    But for those who have been evaluated and have been given the profressional opinion that they need continued extensive treatment, to offer it as an option they may or may not choose as long as they stay dry is not good enough for me. Agree to disagree?

    Using words like "impaired" and "garbage" is not productive.

    Off note: I don't think however, if a person chooses to go to AA that anyone has a right to choose his/her sponsor. That ain't right.
    Last edit by Tweety on Jun 11, '04

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