12-Step Coercion - page 12

the following presentation was given at the may 21, 2004 open forum of the north carolina board of nursing meeting:... Read More

  1. by   tommyperkins
    Quote from Nurse Ratched
    I work in a medical psychiatric and addictions program, so I guess I consider myself a treatment professional, altho we do detox, not long term treatment. I am speaking based on my experience in that setting. I can tell you based on the return rate of our patients, whether set up with outpatient followup or longer term treatment in inpatient facilities, is very high.
    [font='Courier New']Have you ever considered that the American treatment system may be harmful rather than helpful? Many writers claim that it is harmful including Dr. Stanton Peele, Dr. Herbert Fingarette, and Dr. Jeff Schaler who last year was featured on ABC News' 20/20 with John Stossel. Could the American treatment industry be blackening the record of medicine, just as did Dr. Benjamin Rush who just happens to be the first medical professional to claim alcoholism is a disease?



    [font='Courier New']Of Dr. Benjamin Rush, the "great" Revolutionary War doctor and signer of the [font='Courier New']Declaration of Independence, P.M. Ashburn wrote in his "History of the Medical Department of the U.S. Army", "By virtue of his social and professional prominence, his position as teacher and his facile pen, Benjamin Rush had more influence upon American medicine and was more potent in the propagation and long perpetuation of medical errors than any man of his day. To him more than to any man in America, was due the great vogue of
    vomits, purging, and especially of bleeding, salivation and blistering, which blackened the record of medicine and afflicted the sick almost to the time of the Civil War."

    On the cold, windy afternoon of December 14, 1799, a horse ridden by 37 year old Dr. Elisha Cullen Dick galloped up the snow covered driveway of Mt. Vernon. He was of a "newer" school of medical thought than the two older doctors who were tending General Washington, and he had been summoned for a more collective opinion. When Dr. Dick arrived the General had already been bled three times. "He needs all of his strength--bleeding will diminish it." was the iconoclastic young doctor's opinion. His advice was not taken by the two veteran bleeders, Dr. Craik and Dr. Brown. Washington was bled for the fourth time. He died that evening. Craik later wrote Brown that they should have listened to Dick. Had they "taken no more blood from him,
    our good friend might have been alive now. But we were governed by the best light we had; we thought we were right, and so we are justified."
  2. by   Tweety
    Quote from Dixiedi
    Everything is revolved around something, call it God, Alah, Budha, eagles, wolves, the sun, the earth, whatever! That doesn't mean any of it is religioin.
    But to some of us it's "religious", not religion. But you're right it's semantics. Some see religion, other's don't.
  3. by   tommyperkins
    Quote from 3rdShiftGuy
    But to some of us it's "religious", not religion. But you're right it's semantics. Some see religion, other's don't.
    Yes, anyone who denies that prayer is religious is definitely playing a game of semantics.

    "Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."George Orwell
  4. by   Dixiedi
    Quote from 3rdShiftGuy
    But to some of us it's "religious", not religion. But you're right it's semantics. Some see religion, other's don't.
    Amen! Oh no, that's religious, or maybe not...maybe it just means we agree and that's the end of that!
  5. by   loerith
    I'll Amen, but thats not even close "...to the end of that!"

    Please define "religious" using the New Oxford English Dictionary.

    Do the same for the word "prayer".

    Go read page 85 of the AA Big Book or read the 3rd step prayer.

    Then come back here and try to play with words again and TRY to make AA look non-religious.

    Oh...btw 2 Appeals Courts already overuled you.

    No amount of semantics will win this one for ya. Logic and reason win.


    Love and Peace,
    loerith
  6. by   Dixiedi
    Quote from loerith
    I'll Amen, but thats not even close "...to the end of that!"

    Please define "religious" using the New Oxford English Dictionary.

    Do the same for the word "prayer".

    Go read page 85 of the AA Big Book or read the 3rd step prayer.

    Then come back here and try to play with words again and TRY to make AA look non-religious.

    Oh...btw 2 Appeals Courts already overuled you.

    No amount of semantics will win this one for ya. Logic and reason win.


    Love and Peace,
    loerith
    We are all painfully aware of how every mention of the God that this country was built on is being shoved under the carpet by a few godless individuals. As usual, he who speaks loudest or heard the most often becomes "right" in the minds of those too small minded to think for themselves. The masses follow along like sheep behind those with the biggest mouths. It begins when they are in preschool and continues throughout their lives. I really feel sorry for them.
  7. by   CHATSDALE
    OK sometimes we have to do things we don't like to get from point a to point b basicly maybe if you want your nursing lisence back devise a plan and present it to bon or request a rehab other than aa....if you do not have a plan or if you do no want or can't afford there has to be other alternatives. i have never been to an aa meeting , not even sure what the 12 steps are but if you attend a buffet you pick and chose what you want you don't have to eat the whole thing...when you get your license back remember what you have been through this time around....i hope that you are relicensed and that you get back to work where you will be helpful to fellow man good luck
  8. by   Big Bab's
    Quote from Dixiedi
    I just missed it. Prayer, as is commonly defined is a religious thing but with an open mind one can see that it can be no more than an individual or group asking for the inner strength to get through the day. Again, not especially religious.
    Too many anti-religion people are so stuck on semantics that they fail to see more than one definition in anything. Everything is revolved around something, call it God, Alah, Budha, eagles, wolves, the sun, the earth, whatever! That doesn't mean any of it is religioin.

    The point that we keep trying to make here and that you are missing is that the 12 steps ARE RELIGIOUS in nature, this IS NOT an opinion, its legal!!...The courts have already ruled on this, and with that said IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO MANDATE PEOPLE TO THESE MEETINGS!...It is ilegal to mandate people to religion!
  9. by   Big Bab's
    Quote from CHATSDALE
    OK sometimes we have to do things we don't like to get from point a to point b basicly maybe if you want your nursing lisence back devise a plan and present it to bon or request a rehab other than aa....if you do not have a plan or if you do no want or can't afford there has to be other alternatives. i have never been to an aa meeting , not even sure what the 12 steps are but if you attend a buffet you pick and chose what you want you don't have to eat the whole thing...when you get your license back remember what you have been through this time around....i hope that you are relicensed and that you get back to work where you will be helpful to fellow man good luck

    The difference here is that at the buffet you have the right and are allowed to pick only what you want, at a 12 step meeting its all or nothing, especially when involved in an alternative program....we are required to PROVE that we "eating to ENTIRE buffet" on a monthly basis....it sucks.
  10. by   Txsizzler
    Quote from Dixiedi
    We are all painfully aware of how every mention of the God that this country was built on is being shoved under the carpet by a few godless individuals. As usual, he who speaks loudest or heard the most often becomes "right" in the minds of those too small minded to think for themselves. The masses follow along like sheep behind those with the biggest mouths. It begins when they are in preschool and continues throughout their lives. I really feel sorry for them.
    There are all kinds of 12 Step Meetings now, which is a good thing, in my opinion. The problem is that we are living in a post-Christian culture which no longer values Judeo-Christian moral principles. Without these, the 12 Steps loose their moral force and a person's recovery is meager while the person remains vulnerable to the assaults of evil. Many are giving themselves over to New Age thinking and returning to superstitious behavior. Otherwise intelligent people resorting to Tarot Cards or Palm Readers during 12 step meetings. Such superstitious behavior only feeds human brokenness. Regrettably, the moral imperatives of Christian living are not acceptable in today's permissive culture.
  11. by   Dixiedi
    Quote from Big Bab's
    The point that we keep trying to make here and that you are missing is that the 12 steps ARE RELIGIOUS in nature, this IS NOT an opinion, its legal!!...The courts have already ruled on this, and with that said IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO MANDATE PEOPLE TO THESE MEETINGS!...It is ilegal to mandate people to religion!
    Everything is religious in nature. That's the point I am trying to make, not very well I agree. No matter what it is or what you call it everything revolves around some kind of power we can not feel, see or touch. Many use religion to give some definition to it, others simply call it nature. Regardless, it IS.
    So, apparently the 12 steps refer to God? I can't say that I know, I also can not attest to the success vs fail rate of AA or any other rehab. What I do know is that something must be available for those who are too week to stay away from the bottle/pill/syringe. If you want to stay sober, you can go to these meetings and allow the comraderie (sure I spelled that one wrong) to help you and not the religion. Or, you can take it to court and claim they are trying to force religion on you. Take your choice.
    Would it actually hurt any atheist to say God? Would it hurt any athiest to pray to God. NO. It's just an excuse to stay drunk or hopped up on drugs.

    Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
  12. by   Tweety
    Quote from Dixiedi
    Would it actually hurt any atheist to say God? Would it hurt any athiest to pray to God. NO. It's just an excuse to stay drunk or hopped up on drugs.

    Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
    Um.....the point they are trying to make it that's it's illegal. Forcing an athesist to pray to God may not hurt the person, but it's illegal. In this country "the time" must be constitutional.
  13. by   Dixiedi
    Quote from 3rdShiftGuy
    Um.....the point they are trying to make it that's it's illegal. Forcing an athesist to pray to God may not hurt the person, but it's illegal. In this country "the time" must be constitutional.
    And my point is that even though a few big mouthed folk who are too sorry to do that time found a way out of it! Fact is, even an athiest believes in something to explain the nature of this earth. Call it whatever they want, call it nature, God, Jahova, Buddah, eagles, wolves, whatever... they believe in something. Therefore they can do the time understanding that one man says God while another says wolf or that thing we can not define that allows this earth to exist where there was nothing.
    Being hung up on semantics and taking the word God out of everything leaves some people with absolutely no spiritual leadership and that is something every human needs; even those who aren't sure what it is but they are sure it's not God.

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