Nurse: 'I was fired for refusing flu shot' - page 5

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  1. Visit  NRSKarenRN profile page
    0
    From LiveStrong Foundation:

    Top 10 Communicable Diseases

    Mortality and morbidity statistics from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention provide information on the impact of various communicable diseases in the U.S. Case fatalities and hospitalization figures give an indication as to the severity of the illness and economic impact of the different diseases.

    Topping the list as the only communicable disease in the top 10 list of all fatalities is the duo of influenza and pneumonia. Influenza virus--the flu--rages through the world in a seasonal blitz. In the U.S., it contributes to over 200,000 hospitalizations a year and about 36,000 deaths. The advent of the H1N1, or swine flu. has further deepened concerns over this disease this year. Usually riding on the back of the flu is bacterial pneumonia, mainly by the pneumococcus bacteria. Pneumococcal diseases account for more than 175,000 hospitalizations and 4,800 deaths.
    Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/33...#ixzz1AV5QGAUN
    Last edit by NRSKarenRN on Jan 8, '11
  2. Visit  KarmaWiseRaven profile page
    1
    Quote from NRSKarenRN
    From LiveStrong Foundation:

    Top 10 Communicable Diseases

    Mortality and morbidity statistics from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention provide information on the impact of various communicable diseases in the U.S. Case fatalities and hospitalization figures give an indication as to the severity of the illness and economic impact of the different diseases.

    Topping the list as the only communicable disease in the top 10 list of all fatalities is the duo of influenza and pneumonia. Influenza virus--the flu--rages through the world in a seasonal blitz. In the U.S., it contributes to over 200,000 hospitalizations a year and about 36,000 deaths. The advent of the H1N1, or swine flu. has further deepened concerns over this disease this year. Usually riding on the back of the flu is bacterial pneumonia, mainly by the pneumococcus bacteria. Pneumococcal diseases account for more than 175,000 hospitalizations and 4,800 death


    Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/33...#ixzz1AV5QGAUN
    No disrespect to you Ma'am i can see you can paste and copy and very good i may add. But can you tell me what you think in your own words about the topic at hand. Would you let your employer force you to get a flu shot? Or would you refuse and lose your job? I would love to hear what you have to say being a 30 yr nurse.
    One2gofst likes this.
  3. Visit  woahmelly profile page
    2
    Quote from Ella Halligan RN
    You may feel it is specious. As someone who spent a great deal of time behind the Iron Curtain in Soviet controlled Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Germany, who has walked through the gas chambers at Dachau and Auschwitz, I guarantee you that it is never in the best interests of any group of individuals to willingly lay down their rights.
    Hello, Godwin. We meet again.
    Java_Wench and emmy27 like this.
  4. Visit  NRSKarenRN profile page
    0
    Quote from KarmaWiseRaven
    No disrespect to you Ma'am i can see you can paste and copy and very good i may add. But can you tell me what you think in your own words about the topic at hand. Would you let your employer force you to get a flu shot? Or would you refuse and lose your job? I would love to hear what you have to say being a 30 yr nurse.
    I get a flu shot every year to protect myself, my family, my staff and patients. My employer offers shot every October. Over 85% of my staff receive it; those who don't sign declaration form that we offered them said protection--and don't go near patients if sick.
    Those with respiratory crude this year took sick time and stayed home after seeing how flu caused one RN to wind up on vent last year.
  5. Visit  Ella Halligan RN profile page
    0
    Quote from woahmelly
    Hello, Godwin. We meet again.
    I have no clue who Godwin is. My name is Elisabeth. I am married to my husband Steven, which if you went to my profile and the link to one of my Squidoo sites you would see that. I have seven children ranging in age from 18 years to 16 months. I have worked almost exclusively pediatric care in Arizona and now do rural health care in Idaho.

    My mother is Polish and we spent a great deal of my childhood overseas visiting family in Poland and visiting neighboring areas. My mother loves to travel and I was blessed to be able to go with her.
  6. Visit  Ella Halligan RN profile page
    1
    Quote from One2gofst
    Once again, you are using irrelevant appeals/ad hominems to propose why your opinion should be more valid than anothers. Enough with the logical fallacies in your position, please. A patient is not the same as an employee, that is a fact. In vaccinations for employment, no one is forcing anyone to do anything. Hell, in an employment at will state, as employer can fire you if it doesn't like the shoes you are wearing, if it wants to. The fact of the matter is they generally don't, as it would create a lot of work to keep a staff. However, if an employer feels strongly enought about something the can make it a requirement of continued employment.

    Since you seem to be focusing on the issue of invasive procedures, let me pose a hypothetical, just to see where you come out on it. If an employer had no requirement for random drug/alcohol screening when you hired on with the company and 5 years down the road decided to implement random drug/alcohol screenings, would you then contend that all those people hired before the policy was put in place would never be subject to those screenings?
    No, and apparently you can't see a difference between being forced to inject something IN to your body that may have adverse medical consequences that are unforeseen at the time of the injection and giving a urine sample. Giving a urine sample doesn't run the risk of a medical reaction that can be as severe, in some patients, as seizures, comas and death. Just because those risks are RARE does not meant that they do not exist.
    Bella'sMyBaby likes this.
  7. Visit  Ella Halligan RN profile page
    5
    Quote from Grey Lady
    Does your employer have the right to protect its patients? If there were another scientifically supported option and the employer insisted on the flu shot over that, I could support your argument and would heartily do so.
    There IS another scientifically supported opinion. It is using the precautions we have in place already (whether you entered nursing at the time they were called standard or universal or whatever new term is next around the corner.)

    Wash your hands before and after every single patient contact. Wear a mask if you have even the slightest of concerns that you might be able to pick up or spread a virus. Clean your stethoscope between uses and use dedicated, disposable supplies for patients with contagious diseases. Wear the nasty blue isolation gown every single time you set foot into an isolation room (how many of us have seen nurses who simply refuse to abide by those simple precautions unless they risk getting written up?)

    You should be doing all of those things anyway. The fact of the matter is, the flu shot only covers about 3 strains of the flu. And it is the "best guess" as to those manufacturing the flu shot as to which strains are most likely to be needed at the time that the flu shot will be given... which is months after they begin production of the vaccine! There is no guarantee whatsoever that the flu shot any person receives will protect them from whatever strain of flu happens to actually be going around in their area.
  8. Visit  Ella Halligan RN profile page
    2
    Quote from One2gofst
    Thanks for the response. I suppose where you and I differ is the fact that I believe the employer has the right to set requirements at any time, just as an employee is free to continue being employed or quit at any point. I don't see it as being forced, but rather a choice to be made.
    CAN an employer choose to fire an employee for this? Sure, they can. Can an employee choose to sue that employer for that decision? Absolutely. Will the employee or employer prevail in court? That depends upon any number of factors.

    There are certain black and white areas.... if you go for employment and during the hiring process you are informed that it is a policy of this institution to force mandatory vaccination upon their employees, you can choose not to work there, or you can choose to abide by it.

    If you have a contract that states that you don't have to be forced to endure mandatory vaccination, then the employer cannot discharge you for that without facing repercussions.

    I am trying to engage in a thought process more along the lines of that listed in the article.... no rule about mandatory vaccinations at the time of hiring. Being told that there were exemptions available for those who had either a medical or religious objection to the vaccination. Fulfilling the requirements for the exemption and then being told your religion isn't "good enough" to qualify for the exemption. (Who gets to decide what someone else's firmly held religious beliefs are?) Those are the facts that can be gleaned from the article.

    Now, as to what can't be directly inferred... let's say that the employee has been there for a number of years and her clinical skills are at least adequate for the job. She has never abused the sick time policy. She follows the precautions the hospital has laid out to the letter. In other words, she is a responsible employee doing all she can to prevent the spread of disease and be a productive worker.

    Although the medical community at large is loathe to admit it, there are legitimate questions as to both the safety and efficacy of the flu shot.

    Should an employee who truly believes that it is not safe or that it falls outside of her religious beliefs to have this substance injected IN to her body.... this is not something that can be removed at a later time... once the vaccination has been administered, whatever consequences are to come will come... should that employee have to leave a job she otherwise loves and is GOOD at... costing the employer the considerable funds required to replace her... when there is strong evidence to support that her current actions are having the effect that this vaccination is supposed to produce... namely, a productive employee who does not spread disease?
    which_path and Bella'sMyBaby like this.
  9. Visit  woahmelly profile page
    7
    Quote from Ella Halligan RN
    I have no clue who Godwin is. My name is Elisabeth. I am married to my husband Steven, which if you went to my profile and the link to one of my Squidoo sites you would see that. I have seven children ranging in age from 18 years to 16 months. I have worked almost exclusively pediatric care in Arizona and now do rural health care in Idaho.

    My mother is Polish and we spent a great deal of my childhood overseas visiting family in Poland and visiting neighboring areas. My mother loves to travel and I was blessed to be able to go with her.

    I apologize. I should cite my obscure references.
    ""As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[3][2] In other words, Godwin put forth the sarcastic observation that, given enough time, all online discussions--regardless of topic or scope--inevitably end up being about Hitler and the Nazis."

    Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Hygiene Queen, AreEn17, GadgetRN71, and 4 others like this.
  10. Visit  Ella Halligan RN profile page
    1
    Quote from woahmelly
    I apologize. I should cite my obscure references.
    ""As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[3][2] In other words, Godwin put forth the sarcastic observation that, given enough time, all online discussions--regardless of topic or scope--inevitably end up being about Hitler and the Nazis."

    Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Well, as someone who on my mother's side of the family is Polish gypsy and Jewish, as someone who did lose family members there, and as someone who has physically been there..... I have legitimate reason for concern. But, if you go back and read, MOST of my references were to the Iron Curtain which is Communism, not Nazism. I certainly hope that you recognize the difference. I was never in those countries during Nazi rule... I am only 38. But I WAS there during Communist rule.

    If this is just a battle of the one liners and pithy comments (which is what it seems to be to some of the posters) then I would go with "Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

    The concept that employers can do anything they want at any time for any reason and if you want to keep your job you'd better just go along with it is very disturbing to me. It breeds a mentality that a long view of history shows, time and again, leads to problems. Why do employers mandate this? Because it is the "acceptable" view as put forward by those in the federal government, mainly the CDC. Any dissenting views result in those holding them being marginalized and dismissed... often for reasons having nothing to do with the science itself.

    We see this in many areas of life... and as a nurse and a mother I run into the vaccination issue on more than one front. The same type of coercion that results in an valuable employee losing her job also results in doctors informing parents that if they don't agree to follow THEIR (aka the CDCs) vaccination schedule to the letter they will report them for medical neglect and child endangerment. Let us just ignore the fact that certain vaccines carry more risks than benefits in certain populations (a child in the U.S. is more at risk of problems from the rotavirus vaccine, for instance... which has had three different versions pulled off the market... than they are from the rotavirus itself!)
    Bella'sMyBaby likes this.
  11. Visit  NRSKarenRN profile page
    2
    advice from peds experts: children's hospital of philadelphia (chop):

    welcome to the vaccine education center

    vaccines changed medicine

    vaccines have literally transformed the landscape of medicine over the course of the 20th century. before vaccines, parents in the united states could expect that every year:
    • polio would paralyze 10,000 children.
    • rubella (german measles) would cause birth defects and mental retardation in as many as 20,000 newborns.
    • measles would infect about 4 million children, killing 3,000.
    • diphtheria would be one of the most common causes of death in school-aged children.
    • a bacterium called haemophilus influenzae type b (hib) would cause meningitis in 15,000 children, leaving many with permanent brain damage.
    • pertussis (whooping cough) would kill thousands of infants.
    vaccines have reduced and, in some cases, eliminated many diseases that killed or severely disabled people just a few generations before. for most americans today, vaccines are a routine part of healthcare.
    however, the disappearance of many childhood diseases has led some parents to question whether vaccines are still necessary. further, a growing number of parents are concerned that vaccines may actually be the cause of diseases such as autism, hyperactivity, developmental delay, attention deficit disorder, diabetes, multiple sclerosis, and sudden infant death syndrome (sids) among others. these concerns have caused some parents to delay vaccines or withhold them altogether from their children.

    for more specific information on these concerns, visit the vaccine safety - hot topics and vaccine safety faqs sections of our site.

    ---

    vaccines all adults need

    info on pa employers requiring flu vaccinations:

    chop mandated vaccination in 2009:
    mandating influenza vaccine: one hospital’s experience
    medscape free registration required.

    hi; my name is paul offit, and i'm talking to you today from the division of infectious diseases at the children's hospital of philadelphia. what i'd like to talk about is our experience last year with influenza vaccine, because we took an unusual step. we actually mandated the vaccine, not only for healthcare workers, but for all employees, and the deal was that if you didn't want to get the vaccine, you had 2 weeks of unpaid leave to think about it. if you still didn't want to get the vaccine, then you were asked to step down from your position.

    of the more than 9000 employees in our hospital, only a few chose to lose their jobs over this request. we did it for the obvious reasons. certain facts about influenza are clear. every year, some children with influenza virus come into our hospital, and every year some children come into our hospital who don't have influenza, but who catch it from either a healthcare provider or other employee in our hospital. hospitals that have higher rates of immunization have lower rates of nosocomial infection, and we wanted to be 1 of those hospitals.

    healthcare workers here encouraged to get flu shots - lancaster

    release date: 9/27/2010

    ...elsewhere, main line health system, the children's hospital of philadelphia and the university of pennsylvania health system are requiring employees to get the shot or face being fired, according to the immunization action coalition and news reports. generally, the only exemptions are for those with medical or religious reasons.
    outside of pennsylvania, johns hopkins health system in maryland requires workers to get the vaccine or wear a mask. new york presbyterian hospital requires the shot, or asks for a "voluntary resignation."
    there has been some pushback from health care workers on the issue.
    last year, new york health workers sued when the state ordered them to get flu shots during the swine flu pandemic, according to news reports. the state withdrew the requirement when it appeared sufficient vaccines may not have been available.
    a new york state senator has said he will reintroduce a flu shot bill, which would be the first of its kind in the nation...

    can health-care workers be forced to get flu shots? - time
    by alice park[color=#999999]monday, oct. 19, 2009

    ...employers, notes alabama labor-and-employment attorney jennifer swain of the firm baker donelson, can set conditions of employment. so does that mean any company could impose an h1n1-vaccine requirement as part of its business-continuity plan? most likely yes, but swain is betting that few non-health-care companies would be willing to endure the inevitable protests against such a policy. "in health care, it strengthens an employer's argument that an employee might cause a direct threat by not being vaccinated," she says.

    many states already require that people working in hospitals be immunized against measles, mumps and rubella, for example, and an influenza-vaccine mandate shouldn't be seen as any different from these standards. ...
    read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...#ixzz1awxxejb3
    Last edit by NRSKarenRN on Jan 9, '11
    llg and CuriousMe like this.
  12. Visit  Goju profile page
    3
    with 16000 HCW in the UK out of work sick right now with H1N1 I think all HCW should get the vax. Mandatory.

    You guys go down... and we all follow.
    llg, Laidback Al, and CuriousMe like this.
  13. Visit  heron profile page
    4
    Quote from Ella Halligan RN
    Well, as someone who on my mother's side of the family is Polish gypsy and Jewish, as someone who did lose family members there, and as someone who has physically been there..... I have legitimate reason for concern. But, if you go back and read, MOST of my references were to the Iron Curtain which is Communism, not Nazism. I certainly hope that you recognize the difference. I was never in those countries during Nazi rule... I am only 38. But I WAS there during Communist rule.

    If this is just a battle of the one liners and pithy comments (which is what it seems to be to some of the posters) then I would go with "Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it".
    See post #62, above.

    Your presentation of your credentials over and over does not show that you have the slightest clue about epidemiology. I get that you hate communism. I get that you hate nazism. But what do you know about infectious disease, epidemiology and comparative risk?

    I happen to agree with parts of your analysis of the politics of labor/management relations ... but I'm not entirely convinced that it proves your point.
    Laidback Al, woahmelly, CuriousMe, and 1 other like this.

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