Apparently per the EEOC's guidelines employers (not just healthcare related) can mandate vaccination of workers. The exception is a "sincerely held religious belief" or a covered disability. Just found out this morning that a chain of for profit LTC/SNF's are rolling out a Covid vaccine mandate for all direct care staff or face indefinite unpaid administrative leave. I am a heavy supporter of vaccination and of the new COVID vaccine and in fact am due to get one in early January. But I am doing so of my own volition. My facility encouraged all workers to sign up for a vaccine and provided information sessions and it's been really effective at getting people to sign up.
Even though I would disagree with someone's choice to not vaccinate, I don't believe they should be mandated at this point.
How can you tell if you are susceptible to those risks? It's not like the risk is maybe a few hours or weeks of pain? It's likely that it could be a lifetime of debilitation!
That's not a risk in my book. It's stupidity to risk not taking the vaccine and opening yourself up to a possible lifetime of pain and suffering.
Except that the VAERS database offers a basis for believing that sometimes the risk of the vaccine can be a serious or even fatal reaction. At the same time the risk for a young healthy person dying from the virus especially one who has already been infected in the past is low. Now I still think that in most cases (even for a young person as above) is probably lower for the vaccine. At the same time this is still an experimental vaccine so it is far from prudent especially for a younger person to wait. After all it was only a few months ago when the assertion that Covid 19 was most likely came from the Wuhan lab was called "fake news" and now that perspective is emerging as more of a main stream perspective.
Again, it is not the same thing. The influenza vaccine is fully tested and not approved under an "emergency provision".
8 hours ago, myoglobin said:
At the same time this is still an experimental vaccine
I wrote this on another thread but relevant to this one (my bold);
"Severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) emerged in China in 2002 and spread to other countries before brought under control. Because of a concern for reemergence or a deliberate release of the SARS coronavirus, vaccine development was initiated."
India is surely suffering from this disease and I pray for their quick improvement .
14 hours ago, myoglobin said:
However, the risk of serious Covid infection decreases greatly with younger age
Perhaps rather than pray give them vaccines.
"The Times of India have also reported that in some states, such as India’s southernmost state, Tamil Nadu, the growth rate of deaths was the largest among people in the 31 to 40 group (37%) between January and May this year, and was similarly large among 20 to 30 year olds (31%)."
I wrote this on another thread but relevant to this one (my bold);
"Severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) emerged in China in 2002 and spread to other countries before brought under control. Because of a concern for reemergence or a deliberate release of the SARS coronavirus, vaccine development was initiated."
"The Times of India have also reported that in some states, such as India’s southernmost state, Tamil Nadu, the growth rate of deaths was the largest among people in the 31 to 40 group (37%) between January and May this year, and was similarly large among 20 to 30 year olds (31%)."
My caution(s) and concerns are aimed more at the United States. The situation in India may be quite different given different housing, nutrition and other situations. However, at least in the United States according to this NPR article https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/05/25/997467734/childrens-risk-of-serious-illness-from-covid-19-is-as-low-as-it-is-for-the-flu there were around 300 Covid 19 deaths of children in the US about double the number for the 2019-2020 influenza season. The fact is we do not know what the long term consequences of the vaccine are which may have issues relating to fertility or even contributing to the emergence of vaccine resistant variants of the Covid infection such as written about in the Pub Med article https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32908214/ and here in Nature https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2538-8 . Here is the perspective of one doctor concerned about this prospect
My caution(s) and concerns are aimed more at the United States. The situation in India may be quite different given different housing, nutrition and other situations. However, at least in the United States according to this NPR article...
It is a PANDEMIC. What happens in other countries has the potential to happen in your country. Do you have the Indian variant yet? Don't worry, you will have soon.
50 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
there were around 300 Covid 19 deaths of children in the US about double the number for the 2019-2020 influenza season.
And younger and younger adults are catching it both in India and in Brazil. Variants.
50 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
The fact is we do not know what the long term consequences of the vaccine are which may have issues relating to fertility or even contributing to the emergence of vaccine resistant variants of the Covid infection...
So working on a vaccine since 2002 is not long enough for you? How long do you want? 30 years? 50 years? 100 years?
It is a PANDEMIC. What happens in other countries has the potential to happen in your country. Do you have the Indian variant yet? Don't worry, you will have soon.
And younger and younger adults are catching it both in India and in Brazil. Variants.
So working on a vaccine since 2002 is not long enough for you? How long do you want? 30 years? 50 years? 100 years?
Both those articles are from last year before the roll out of the vaccine programmes so are outdated.
The Youtube video you posted is also from a year ago. It is outdated.
If you are going to use references at least use ones that are up to date and contain current information.
There have been more than 775,676,935 people vaccinated in the world.
My point was that issues such as nutrition, housing density, Vitamin D and Zinc status (an element of nutrition) all have an influence on morbidity and mortality and these elements are different in India verses the United States. The variant B.1.617 is already in the United States. Note the vaccine is authorized currently under "emergency use" and has not gone through the final stages of approval (although it may by Fall) thus even our active duty military personnel cannot be compelled to take the vaccine. Vaccines have risks and benefits and the benefits are somewhat relative to your age, overall health status and even where you live. Thus someone who is 80 with diabetes faces a different risk scenario than someone who is say 20 with no other health risks. Another element of concern is that previous infection may offer comparable immunity to the vaccine https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2776810?guestAccessKey=3e87dda5-1626-4a94-8716-5b73e3534d44&utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=022421 (at least for a time we cannot say long term, but we also cannot say that with the vaccine). Also there may be greater risks of vaccine side effects or reactions if you have high level of antibodies or active infection (which is often without symptoms) https://www.MSN.com/en-us/health/medical/covid-19-antibody-testing-could-be-beneficial-before-vaccination/ar-BB1diJ5u
My point was that issues such as nutrition, housing density, Vitamin D and Zinc status (an element of nutrition) all have an influence on morbidity and mortality and these elements are different in India verses the United States. The variant B.1.617 is already in the United States. Note the vaccine is authorized currently under "emergency use" and has not gone through the final stages of approval (although it may by Fall) thus even our active duty military personnel cannot be compelled to take the vaccine. Vaccines have risks and benefits and the benefits are somewhat relative to your age, overall health status and even where you live. Thus someone who is 80 with diabetes faces a different risk scenario than someone who is say 20 with no other health risks. Another element of concern is that previous infection may offer comparable immunity to the vaccine https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2776810?guestAccessKey=3e87dda5-1626-4a94-8716-5b73e3534d44&utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=022421 (at least for a time we cannot say long term, but we also cannot say that with the vaccine). Also there may be greater risks of vaccine side effects or reactions if you have high level of antibodies or active infection (which is often without symptoms) https://www.MSN.com/en-us/health/medical/covid-19-antibody-testing-could-be-beneficial-before-vaccination/ar-BB1diJ5u
All these reports and references you are quoting are all very pessimistic. No wonder you are against the vaccine. Read some more positive stuff from around the world about the vaccines actually being 80 - 95% effective. Stop trying to second guess everything and stop being so fearful.
My caution(s) and concerns are aimed more at the United States.
As Grumpy has already pointed out, this is a pandemic. What happens in India ought to concern you. You might be oceans away, but you are not isolated from the rest of the world.
4 hours ago, myoglobin said:
My point was that issues such as nutrition, housing density, Vitamin D and Zinc status (an element of nutrition) all have an influence on morbidity and mortality and these elements are different in India verses the United States. The variant B.1.617 is already in the United States.
Do you have any evidence that shows that Vitamin D and Zink status in India and the U.S. is a factor that is in any way, shape or form influencing how the pandemic is evolving in the two countries, or is this just you speculating that it’s a factor? Have you even seen any RCTs that show that a certain level of D and Zinc are protective factors? (Against either infection, symptomatic illness, critical illness or death).
5 hours ago, myoglobin said:
My caution(s) and concerns are aimed more at the United States. The situation in India may be quite different given different housing, nutrition and other situations. However, at least in the United States according to this NPR article https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/05/25/997467734/childrens-risk-of-serious-illness-from-covid-19-is-as-low-as-it-is-for-the-flu there were around 300 Covid 19 deaths of children in the US about double the number for the 2019-2020 influenza season. The fact is we do not know what the long term consequences of the vaccine are which may have issues relating to fertility or even contributing to the emergence of vaccine resistant variants of the Covid infection such as written about in the Pub Med article https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32908214/ and here in Nature https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2538-8 . Here is the perspective of one doctor concerned about this prospect
Your sources do not say what you claimed.
Why did you mention children since Grumpy was talking about 20-40 year olds dying in India? I think he meant young adults, not children?
The other three links you included (PubMed, Nature and the doctor in the Youtube clip), all talk about ADE (Antibody dependent enhancement).
Your sources are not discussing ”vaccines contributing to the emergence of vaccine resistant variants”. And they are certainly not talking about the vaccines causing infertility. The infertility thing is pure disinformation and there is no evidence of it, or plausible mechanism of action. It really annoys me to see disinformation like that posted on a nursing forum.
The Youtube clip simply explains what ADE and VAERS is. Towards the end (6.37) the doctor says ”There’s no evidence to suggest that a SARS/Coronavirus vaccine might induce ADE or Vaccine Associated Enhanced Respiratory Disease”.
ADE is not the same as a vaccine contributing to the emergence of vaccine resistant variants. Have you listened to or read and understood the sources you provided? The vaccines themselves obviously won’t cause ADE (they aren’t live vaccines). The only theoretical concern I can see here is the effect the antibodies your body responds with after you get the vaccine, might have on a future infection with a new and different variant. That’s not the same as the vaccine leading to new variants. As far as I know we’ve seen no evidence of that happening nor does it appear to be a very likely scenario. What will lead to new variants evolving is having the virus circulating freely. Whether that’s happening in India, the U.S. or in any other country.
About that infertility myth. It makes as much sense to believe that the vaccines might cause infertility as it does for me to believe that I will be able to bench press 350 lbs next year because I got one of the mRNA vaccines earlier this year. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the mRNA vaccines will cause ”super-strength”. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the mRNA vaccines will cause infertility.
I personally find that particular piece of disinformation quite evil. Strong word, I know. But it’s a very powerful way to try to scare a young person hoping to become a parent, from getting vaccinated. Being able to conceive and carry a pregnancy to term is of course the very basis of the continuing existence of our species, so the threat is in a sense existential.
I really hate the way that anti-vaxxers try to sow doubt and prey on primitive fears.
The more people that are persuaded by disinformation to not get vaccinated, the longer we will have to live with the pandemic. And people who didn’t have to die, will.
This is a very short, but good explanation about the infertility myth and various other disinformation, falsehoods and myths about Covid vaccines that are making the rounds on the internet.
My point was that vaccines have risks and benefits. Because they are new we are uncertain about the risks. Also, the risks of Covid in children is much less than older adults. Hence any risk is less tolerable than in a higher risk population (which is why I raised risks to children). My perspective is to wait for data to accumulate before taking on the risk of vaccination especially if one has been previously infected with Covid and has antibodies.
My point was that vaccines have risks and benefits. Because they are new we are uncertain about the risks.
17 hours ago, myoglobin said:
My perspective is to wait for data to accumulate before taking on the risk of vaccination especially if one has been previously infected with Covid and has antibodies.
That is a good source, but don’t you see that it supports my opinion and the opinion of several other posters?
From your link:
”Short-term side effects (I.e., those that happen in the days after a vaccine has been given) are readily apparent because of clinical trial reports and personal experiences, but people also wonder about the possible long-term effects of these vaccines. To answer this question, scientists study the available evidence, and while the rules of science do not allow the scientists to say that long-term effects can never happen, the evidence is strong that these vaccines will not cause long-term harm.
”The history of vaccines shows that delayed effects from vaccination can occur. But when they do, these effects tend to happen within two months of vaccination:”
”Because of the knowledge gained with other vaccines, the FDA required companies making COVID-19 vaccines to follow trial participants for a minimum of eight weeks before they could submit their data for approval. Likewise, the participants in the vaccine trials continue to be followed even though the vaccines have been approved for use.”
The participants in the various phase III trials had been folllowed for two months when EUAs were granted. They are still being followed.
Hundreds of millions of people have been vaccinated with various Covid vaccines. It’s been more than eight weeks after many millions of people’s second doses. It’s almost four months since I received my second dose. Me and many millions like me.
How much more information do you or anyone else need before you or they’ll feel comfortable getting vaccinated? Do you or anyone else have any rational reason for fearing that serious side effects will be discovered six months, a year, ten years (?) after the vaccine is administered when vaccine history shows us that they normally occur within weeks or at most a couple of months after getting vaccinated?
To me it’s quite obvious from what we already know about Covid-19 infections and from what we do know about Covid-19 vaccines and the future information that we can rationally anticipate regarding the vaccines, that getting vaccinated is the correct choice for adults. The rationale for getting vaccinated is two-fold. The first reason is to protect yourself against serious disease and death. Yes, the risk of an infection increases as we age, but it’s not negligible for younger adults, even if they’re otherwise healthy. The second reason is that in order to protect us all, we need to bring down the amount of infections occurring in society as a whole.
I genuinely don’t understand all the angst and drama that a couple of posters are displaying in connection with thinking about getting a Covid vaccine. For me, it was oneoftheeasiestchoices I’ve made in my life. Of course I looked at the trial data first, but after that it was full speed ahead ?
Where is the data that vaccines provide better protection that previous infection? Also, if the vaccines are so effective (approaching 100% in some cases in terms of preventing serious illness/death) then it is those of us who chose not to vaccinate who should be afraid. Indeed, where is that data that the "viral load" of those vaccinated (who can still get infected but do not get sick) is any lower than that of someone who is unvaccinated? The trial process was rushed in my opinion and millions of Americans share this perspective and will likely not be getting vaccinated. If "we are wrong" and you are correct then many of us will get sick and perhaps perish. If "we" are correct then the long term ramifications of a rushed vaccine will likely play themselves out over the months and years to come.
myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN
1,453 Posts
Except that the VAERS database offers a basis for believing that sometimes the risk of the vaccine can be a serious or even fatal reaction. At the same time the risk for a young healthy person dying from the virus especially one who has already been infected in the past is low. Now I still think that in most cases (even for a young person as above) is probably lower for the vaccine. At the same time this is still an experimental vaccine so it is far from prudent especially for a younger person to wait. After all it was only a few months ago when the assertion that Covid 19 was most likely came from the Wuhan lab was called "fake news" and now that perspective is emerging as more of a main stream perspective.