100 year old stroke patient

Nurses General Nursing

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so last weekend on my unit we received an ER admit: 100 year old female ruled IN for a hemorraghic stroke. SBP in the 200s, on a Cardene drip. Oh, she's a DNR. Throughout the night, the HR would dip down, then come right back up, BP was still ridiculous... we were getting ready to call the morgue!

Fast forward a week, I come back to work expecting for this patient to have moved on.... WRONG! This DNR patient had an NGT put in. She had been combative a few days before (her CT scan showed a GROWING intracranial bleed and developing hydrocephalus). I'm guessing she'd been dosed with Ativan before the CT result had been released. Well anyway, she slept for over a day and finally elicited a response when the NGT was put down and she was trying to swat it out of her nose. She'll do that every once in a while, meaning about twice a shift. Next day I took care of her the only response I was able to elicit was a moan about the Peri spray being cold. But other than that, nothing. She didn't even try to swat the NGT out of her nose. Here's the kicker.... she went in for a PEG tube placement today.

This is a patient I felt guilty about having to draw blood from... put a peripheral IV in... why are we invading her body with surgery??!! I feel like her children are committing crimes by putting her through an extended hospital stay, complete with needles, tubes and surgery.

Am I the only one who feels this way? My favorite PCA and I think the docs are trying to milk the insurance. lol.

Yes. I usually try to get a family meeting together with case mgmt, the mds, nursing staff and social work. This way the family can hear from the whole team. Sometimes ppl just have a hard time letting thier mom go.

I agree about what needs to happen as far as a meeting, but why the heck should it be even necessary? For heavens sake, how blind, deaf and dumb can some families be?

But again, why did some doctor think it was okay to do a Total Hip Replacement on 92 year old Zsa Zsa Gabor?

Just because an intervention exists, does not make it right, moral or ethical, and medicine as a profession is failing badly in it's responsibilities to the patients AND their families to use critical thinking when it comes to judicious use of therapy.

Specializes in neurotrauma ICU.

When I'm at work, I'm all about love, support, and compassion. I mean, I don't say "you do realize that WHEN grandma's heart stops and we begin chest compressions I am going to break EVERY SINGLE one of her ribs?!" I think that's pretty darn compassionate.

When I'm at home, where I'm allowed to be a a real person and have an opinion, I'm perfectly entitled to think that these people are ignorant and unrealistic.

That's at best.

At worst, they are sadistic.

My guess is that if this lady's heart WAS to stop, the family would rescind the DNR and demand a code.

Specializes in PICU, NICU, L&D, Public Health, Hospice.

This type of problem will not go away...we have rescinded any portion of health reform which requires MDs to discuss end of life options with patients and families. You know...all that fear about "death panels" and such.

Specializes in Hospice.
When I'm at work, I'm all about love, support, and compassion. I mean, I don't say "you do realize that WHEN grandma's heart stops and we begin chest compressions I am going to break EVERY SINGLE one of her ribs?!" I think that's pretty darn compassionate.

When I'm at home, where I'm allowed to be a a real person and have an opinion, I'm perfectly entitled to think that these people are ignorant and unrealistic.

That's at best.

At worst, they are sadistic.

Yup, you certainly are entitled to your own opinion and, actually, I have said exactly that. Look, I've dealt with full code hospice patients way more than once and have felt the same frustration. Sometimes a reality check is the most compassionate thing you can do.

I also noticed that the OP said the family has been getting conflicting information from the professionals. I've heard that particular complaint from many hospice families, so I don't think it's an uncommon phenomenon.

If the family is getting bad/conflicting information from the people who are supposed to know what's going on, is it any wonder they're ignorant? Just how are they supposed to decide anything when the pros can't even get on the same page about what's happening here? How realistic can you be when the professionals don't agree on what's real?

Let's face it, sometimes we don't tell the whole truth about a patient's condition because we don't want to upset an influential family (friends with a "big shot political Senator") ... or deal with their reactions to unpleasant information ... or deal with our own feelings about terminal illness.

You're right, sometimes there's significant family dysfunction going on, including revenge, greed and flat-out sadism. But, in my experience, it's more often a matter of family dynamics, culture, even religion that determines a their experience of the terminal illness of a loved one. Dismissing them as "ignorant" lets us avoid our own responsibility to facilitate their letting-go process. It's hard. It's do-able.

I still think that, given the dynamics described by the OP, a note to the ethics committee is in order.

ETA that if you think your opinions don't come through on some level, all I can say is you'd be surprised.

Specializes in Med/Surg, Academics.
Above all, check your attitudes and meet the family where they are. Trust me, the attitudes come through and it's no help to the family. As I said, I don't mean to be harsh, but the contempt for pts/families that don't "get it" as fast as we professionals think they should, gets to me.

Thank you for saying so eloquently what I've been thinking every time this subject comes up.

While what happened to the patient is not "traumatic" in the medical sense of the word, she apparently went from living her life to not being functional in the matter of hours. That is certainly "traumatic" for the family, and they are responding in a way that is expected.

Nurses have the benefit (if you want to call it that) for seeing things that the general public never sees. I bet that nurses don't come to the opinions they have about futile care overnight either. Why expect that of families that have never experienced it and are just now processing what has happened to their loved one?

Now, if we were talking about a patient who had a long, degenerative/progressive illness, and futile care was still a part of the equation, I would say that somewhere/somehow, a medical professional dropped the ball on preparing the family for the inevitable.

Specializes in Med/Surg, Academics.
Look, I've dealt with full code hospice patients way more than once and have felt the same frustration.

WHAT?! Why doesn't a DNR code status fall under the requirements for hospice? That's just crazy.

Specializes in Hospice.
WHAT?! Why doesn't a DNR code status fall under the requirements for hospice? That's just crazy.

It is crazy, but requiring DNR is not allowed under CMS regs. I recently had a pt who had received his terminal dx a mere 4 days before I met him ... he just hadn't gotten there yet.

I understand that in Great Britain, the md can make a pt DNR without pt/family consent, but not here in the US.

Specializes in FNP.

They probably need her ss check. Ive seen this time and time again.

WHAT?! Why doesn't a DNR code status fall under the requirements for hospice? That's just crazy.

Nope. Isn't a requirement for my hospice, at any rate. I just lost one recently who was a full code. Of course, CPR, etc. did no good....but it was what the patient wanted. If that one issue stopped folks from receiving hospice, then many of them would choose not to receive hospice care. Most of them come around eventually. Family IS the worst at times, however. It is horribly frustrating when 100 year old grandma falls ill and family wants feeding tubes, etc. I think it has more to do with the fact that accepting grandma's death means accepting one's own mortality, and most people are not able to do that in the US.

Specializes in Med/Surg, Academics.
If that one issue stopped folks from receiving hospice, then many of them would choose not to receive hospice care.

Good point. I don't know a lot about hospice, but if the heart stopping was a part of the disease process (which it would be, wouldn't it?), I would think that it would fall under the "no curative treatments" part of hospice. I guess I just can't wrap my head around accepting one's own death, presumably, and seeking comfort via hospice but still wanting a full code. :confused:

Specializes in LTC.

I've run into a lot of people who don't really understand what happens when one dies. People expect it to be like on TV. Talking with your loved ones and then dead. They expect things to go a lot faster then they really do.

So once someone has gone days without intake a lot of family members will start to panic that we aren't feeding grandma and that is causing more discomfort, since when we don't eat it isn't the most comfortable thing.

I think a lot of education is in order.

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