I have been DYING to write this in the student section with all of the Duke/Columbia/Yale etc. students who are anxious and fretting over their acceptance chances...
I think it is absolutely and one hundred percent wrong for any school to charge $90,000 for the pre-nclex one year curriculum. Wait, scratch that, I think it is heinously wrong for these students to be led to believe that this is necessary. This is a common figure for the majority of the MEPN programs which it sounds as though the OP is talking about.
I guess I feel bad because I was once in their position....looking to go back for a second degree in nursing and I just assumed that, like any undergrad program, the "better" your school the better your job prospects were. So I cpmletely unserstand the motivation of choosing these "name" schools.
But we all know that in nursing this is just so completely unnecessary! ABC community college graduate is just as "valued" as an RN from Yale. In fact, right or wrong, many hospital peers(at all levels) may actually question your 'wisdom' of completing such a program at an expense that just seems foolish.
Anyway, I know I'm babbling and not being coherent this AM but it just breaks my heart to read these folks struggles and know that they are being, if not misled, certainly steered in a very specific direction that is to their financial detriment for absolutely zero reason....
Or worse! Waiting to re-apply the following year when they could be matriculating so much sooner at a commun. college or local BSN and then apply later to ANY master's program, including Columbia, Yale and Duke and have a much easier time getting in at that point. Argh!! It just bugs me.....
Now .... I have a BIG problem with schools that don't provide a good education. But that's a separate issue. I know a lot of lousy schools at all price levels -- both expensive and cheap.
So you've definitely decided on Yale, then? If so, congrats, I'm excited for the both of us! Do they have an Accepted Students day or a meet and greet?
I agree with elkpark on this one. Choice is good. As long as the school is providing the education it promises to deliver, I am fine with it.
Now .... I have a BIG problem with schools that don't provide a good education. But that's a separate issue. I know a lot of lousy schools at all price levels -- both expensive and cheap.
Now, what I'd *love* to hear are which expensive schools you feel are not worth it (even if I really fear the answer!).
Another thing to mention -- my program requires me to work before going straight into the MSN portion (or working while taking it), so I feel that I will have pretty decent experience once I finally graduate as an NP.
Kinda an aside, but how easy is it for a new RN to get part-time hours to allow them continue their masters' studies? Maybe these schools' affiliated hospitals give these students that option?
If these accelerated programs are able to have students have one-on-one preceptorships for most of their clinical experience, then the students likely will have a better practical foundation than the typical 10-students-one-instructor-fight-for-chance-to-do-one-foley clinical experiences that many programs offer.
Kinda an aside, but how easy is it for a new RN to get part-time hours to allow them continue their masters' studies? Maybe these schools' affiliated hospitals give these students that option?
Speaking as an individual that may or may not take time off between the BSN and MSN portions of the program, I am definitely trying to gain some insight into the working environment at JH Hospital, as they encourage students who are pursuing their MSN at JHU to either work part or full time as they see fit to balance workload/experience with the masters curriculum. The added benefit being that they offer tuition reimbursement up to $15K annually (or approximately half of the MSN tuition).
If they pretty much guarantee to hire you part-time at their affiliated hospital so that you can pursue your studies, make some money, get some experience, and contribute to tuition - that's certainly something to count when considering what one's program offers. Plus you're getting to work at a great teaching facility which might mean better support for new nurses and those pursuing further studies than one might be able to obtain on their own - especially within the desired time frame. That is, not having to get oneself hired to the affiliated hospital before applying for school there to get those benefits, or having to try to convince a facility to hire & train a new grad part-time over someone who wants to work full-time. So it does sound like you're getting more for your investment than just the instruction & degree.
I think that yes, it is terrible that those of us who want a second-career in nursing have to do it at a high expense (although I am not spending $90,000 for the first year at Yale - not even close!). I wish that my education was as cheap as chips, and I am fearful of all the student loans. That is a sort of given, and many of us feel that way.
I see it the same way with schools. Isn't it great that there are so many options out there?? :) Personally, I chose to take my MSN from an Ivy League university (as an experienced RN, not a direct-entry student) -- sure, there are lots of schools where I could have gotten an MSN a lot cheaper (and with a lot less effort!!!!), but I shopped around and made the choice that I was most comfortable with (and, nearly 15 years later, I'm still happy with my choice). Other people make a different choice, and I certainly don't think badly of them for making a different choice than I did.
Please explain how your MSN degree was harder to attain than mine or anyone else's here? I'm a traditional BSN prepared RN currently working on my FNP degree through a state school. Somehow you think that you could have earned a graduate degree with far less "effort" via a non-Ivy League school. Were you somehow required to take more courses or complete a greater number of clinical hours? Personally, I'm thrilled to be wrapping up my program after paying cash (and scholarships) for my degree and start off in a new career without debt. Still, I'm baffled at how you perceive your education to be more difficult than anyone else's.
So I just have to say -- does anyone know a school that actually charges $90,000 for the first year? I ask because my tuition is $38,000 for the first year + books and supplies. That clearly is no where close to $90,000. Now if you are talking living expenses, a fancy car, and a fancy lifestyle, then maybe, but I'd really like to know what the OP was basing their numbers on.
I guess an argument can be made that I was the OP, however, the 90,000 comment was in reference to a poster above me currently completing an entry to practice Accelerated BSN and pondering whether or not to continue on for the MSN full-time.
She said she had 80,000 in student loans. I read posters in the Columbia thread talking about the 90,000. Though I can't believe I did this, their own website says
What is the cost of the ETP Program?
Total expenses for the pre-licensure study, can amount to $86-93,000, including all tuition, books, and the cost of living in New York City. However, 98% of our ETP students this year were eligible to receive a scholarship (does not need to be repaid) from the School of Nursing. This is important to note since the pre-licensure study is full-time and outside employment is not possible.
Of course these figures include living expenses because, as someone who has completed just such a program, I know it's nearly impossible to work while you're doing it. Though I'm sure someone, somewhere does. And it's nifty that Columbia(for one example) offers 20000 in scholarship. Yay. That still, IN MY OPINION doesn't negate the fact that it's not worth it at that price. And for arguments sake I checked at a couple of other ABSN and MEPN "big name" programs and somewhere around 40-48 thousand tuition is where they seem to hover for that first pre-license year...
Anyway, as I originally said, it's not like I wish any ill outcome on anyone. I hope it works out. I have no personal investment in what you do with your money. I'm simply expressing my opinion. However, do realize that my opinion is at least a somewhat informed one as:
1) I am, so far anyway, the only poster to have actually completed just such a program as we were discussing (and mine granted the BSN after that first year unlike others and
2) I work in what is considered the most highly paid area for nurses in the country so my value judgements are even based on those ##'s--I can't imagine what a debtload like that would feel like in the areas where so many nurses lament their wages on these pages.
I also don't think it's 'wrong' for a school to charge whatever someone is willing to pay--in my OP I actually said I think it's wrong that either students are led to believe or that they do actually believe that it is worth that much money to complete step one and sit for NCLEX. That's all. Oh well, my opinion. Which, by the way, is not sour grapes as someone alluded to earlier. My ABSN was actually free so I definitely don't have buyer's remorse.
When I originally posted I had in mind the many, many threads I read where people were hand wringing over their choices and strategizing how to re-apply next year and how to strenghten their applications, etc. I just found it sad, that's all. Because once you complete the BSN, or even ADN now, you can then get into most any big name MSN program with minimal competition which made sense to me because no one cares where you became a nurse. Disagree all you want but it's true. Since I'm actually a working RN I think I'll go with what I actually see out inthe real world.
No doubt you can have different academic experiences based on where you matriculate but please don't fool yourself that in any of the first year programs that you will have somehow superior instruction. It's 12-15 months all covering the same fairly basic info. There just isn't time to have some vastly differing experience. The MSN portion can be another story, though not always, but notice I wasn't talking about that. I'm talking 12 moths, pre-NCLEX, and I'm sticking firm having been exactly where you all are now(acceptances in hand) and now being on the other side.
To me, not worth it . That's it. Nobody needs to defend their choices. I was simply saying for, I'll even be generous, 20 grand ABSN or ADN somehere and 30 grand at Columbia(or wherever) you can be an Ivy caliber MSN-NP. Or you can spend roughly 120-140,000 as that original poster might doing a MEPN and then be an Ivy caliber NP.
I think that you have made a solid point, and that it's worth others' consideration. It's nice to have someone share their experiences whose been through the trenches, and to do so from an emotional standpoint in not wanting them to be taken advantage of.
For me, I have to look at the cost of these programs from a purely tuition only standpoint, because either way I would need to pay rent, pay for my car, eat, etc., and I'd have to take out cost of living loans for any program, even a two-year ADN from a community college. So for me, that portion of loan money would be there no matter what, and the only difference is the tuition, really, as everyone requires books and fees, too. That being said, you can choose where you do your "expensive" program, and doing so in NYC only increases the burden. However, it's nice that Columbia tries to offset that with scholarship money.
Miss Mab, where did you do your ABSN program, and if you had it to do all over again, what would you do?
You'd probably be able to work part-time in a traditional RN program as opposed to an accelerated program, especially if you've been able to knock out any non-nursing courses ahead of time (stats, electives). My BSN program was only 4 days a week for most of the two year program (the program started junior year; I was a second degree student). Yes, I needed to study a lot, but there was time for a strong student to work part-time 10-20 hrs/week. I worked a 12 hr shift as a nursing assistant every Friday. It helped to be at a school with an affiliated teaching hospital that was used to hiring student nurses as part-time nursing assistants & paid more than smaller community hospitals. I also was able to work full-time during the summer break. Accelerated programs presumably wouldn't allow for the same degree of part-time work. Just another factor to consider. I know many folks would just rather get it over with in one fell swoop - a VERY rigorous year focused only on nursing school and start working versus two years of not *quite* as rigorous student work and balancing a part-time job in the mix. I know I'd probably feel that way, especially having been out of school awhile and perhaps used to a solid middle-class income.
Having been through nursing school, I just can't imagine feeling anywhere close to ready to practice after just a year. But then again, I didn't feel ready to practice after two years of full-time nursing school! It wasn't that it needed to be longer. But it seemed we spent way too much time on not so useful things (nursing diagnoses!) and not enough on more complex things (fluid/electrolyte imbalances). And nothing but talk about the importance of delegating and time management. Of course it's important but knowing that doesn't help one DO it; that takes experience, the kind of experience that many nursing programs don't offer. I just think nursing education needs a major overhaul. Maybe these accelerated programs will help push some changes through. The type of student who these programs appeal to (second career students with other college degrees) seem less likely to put up with poor education and less likely to accept poor working conditions. So if their programs turn out to be disappointing, they may help to instigate change. And if their programs are satisfactory, then maybe the streamlining of the accelerated programs may prove useful across nursing education.
elkpark
14,633 Posts
Ditto!!