Will a mandate requring RN's to obtain BSN's contribute to a shortage?

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Feb 19, 2012

:yawn: Another diploma vs ADN vs BSN vs nursing shortage thread :banghead: .

Give me a break :bugeyes:

I have NO animosity towards the OP and my comments are to comment in general and have nothing what so ever to do with the OP. Honey, they are not telling nursing students the truth and the difference between the BSN and ADN is about 50 cants an hour when you start off.

The diploma, ADN, BSN debate is as old as time. When I graduated from PURDUE UNIVERSITY, we were told the diploma programs will be shut down. The reality is that, although rare, they still exist and account for about 1% of the nursing population. Almost extinct? Yes, but still graduating nurses 36 years later from when I hear it as a student.

The reality is that, if the required level of education to BSN, those of us licensed will remain licensed ("Grandfathered")and will remain employed. If hospitals begin to "require" you to get your BSN, then they have to pay (federal labor laws) NOw they can not promote you and pay you less but if you hold a license they can't "force you" to go back to school. They say they can but they can't and they are far to cheap to decide other wise.

Does Nursing Education Prepare Nurses for the Real World?In a descriptive survey design, Candela and Bowles^[10] asked 352 recent nursing school graduates how well their educational programs had prepared them for their first jobs as registered nurses, and what, if any, did they identify as the inadequacies in their education? These recent graduates said they were inadequately prepared in pharmacology, clinical practice, leadership, and the use of patient electronic medical records. Most believed that their programs prepared them more for success on the NCLEX-RN exam than for practice.

To be fair, nursing school is about more than preparing a nurse for his or her first job. It's about preparing nurses for a profession -- a lifetime career.

Medscape: Medscape Access

What is keeping New Grads/less experienced Nurses from being hired and solutions?

https://allnurses.com/nursing-activism-healthcare/what-keeping-new-663383.html

The Big Lie?

Without a doubt, the main source of frustration experienced by recently graduated and licensed but still unemployed nurses is what could be called "the big lie."In other words, the television commercials that encourage young people to become nurses -- and then abandon them for months (or years) without employment; and the educators who tell them that the associate's degree is perfectly adequate to guarantee employment, that they will have their pick of jobs when they graduate, and that there is plenty of time to get a BSN later on. Who knows whether it is greed, ignorance, or wishful thinking that underlies the fairy tales told to nursing students about their future job prospects? Whatever the motivation, the disillusionment of our new grads is palpable. The jobs they expected after all of their hard work just haven't materialized, and some grads are getting pretty desperate

Medscape: Medscape Access

ADN vs BSN

Google Search Results for ADN vs BSN

I have met poor practitioners from all levels of education. Education quality has more to do with the program and student rather than the degree. Some how I am NOT shocked that a college education is promoted by the "college of nursing" and a nursing degree should not (does NOT) include the internet and "distance learning". If it was so great wouldn't MD's be doing it as well.....frankly I don't want my heart surgeon schooled on the internet from his living room.

Finally, THERE IS NO NURSING SHORTAGE. Nurse are being laid off in large amounts, there are hiring freezes at most facilities....so the jobs may be posted but they aren't being filled.

http://www.job-hunt.org/careers/nurses.shtml

https://allnurses.com/gsearch.php?cx=partner-pub-9350112648257122%3Avaz70l-mgo9&cof=FORID%3A11&ie=UTF-8&q=nursing+shortage&sa=search

I am tired of the "My toy is better than your toy" montra......Can we all play nice in the sand box?

Ok I've said my piece. OP good luck in school and all the success!:cheers: I'm going to take a nap, I'm grabby. :mad:

Ted · Feb 19, 2012

Gosh, it's been a while since I've read one of these ADN verses BSN verses MSN threads. I guess these threads are simply a fact of life for nursing-focused forums. If people need to discuss the issue, then that's fine with me.

Here's my :twocents: : Personally, I think the minimum degree should be a PhD. That way people can call me Doctor Nurse. THAT would be so cool.

allnurses Guide · Feb 19, 2012

Gosh, it's been a while since I've read one of these ADN verses BSN verses MSN threads. I guess these threads are simply a fact of life for nursing-focused forums. If people need to discuss the issue, then that's fine with me.
Here's my : Personally, I think the minimum degree should be a PhD. That way people can call me Doctor Nurse. THAT would be so cool.

I like your style . . .:)

I think it's getting to the point that "2 year" and "4 year" or any chronological measure for nursing education is becoming obsolete. Those are far from a complete catalogue of available choices nowadays.

merlee · Feb 19, 2012

Oy. There is nothing new under the sun, as far as nursing education goes.

There is no real nursing shortage these days. There are few positions on the 'net, and far fewer print ads than ever before.

The only major ads are from the proprietary schools, and the newer non-profits.

When enrollment drops off, and there is a real shortage, and when salaries rise to compensate for the shortage, then we can have this discussion again.

I would like to see a base salary of $40-50,000/yr for new grads in rural areas, around 60 in more urban areas. And management should be taught, TAUGHT, at even the basic levels. BEFORE you are promoted to a supervisory level you should be prepared for it. Not after you are floundering at the position.

I went to a diploma program in 1971 because I thought I would be best prepared to care for patients. I was correct. But to care for the caregivers and the patients? A different education is required.

Best wishes to everyone who reads this, no matter what your preparation is.

CNA1991, CNA · Feb 19, 2012

Having nursing programs available at community colleges was a MAJOR factor when it came time for me to chose what degree I wanted to pursue. I, like many others, could never afford to go to a four year so I needed a base to start from before I could pursue a higher education. Actually, nursing is not a two year option for a RN; what I mean by that is it takes atleast one if not two years minimun to finish the prereqs/GE for the degree itself and then applying, getting accepted, and the waiting period before your cohort starts. You would be lucky to get a ADN in four years. In my area, schooling is so expensive that our CC recently got flooded with TONS of UC students going back to get cheap credits so our system is flooded completely. You would be lucky to get 3 classes you needed. It's officially going to take me 6 years to get my ADN because of waiting for classes I need and the shear amount of classes I have to take. I am not surprised that at some point they would switch to requiring a BSN because people judge other people by what degree they have, whether it applies to the job or not. I think the only reason Higher education>less patient deaths is true is because the nurses who took the time to get that higher education are probably trying to dedicate more to their career in the first place. No doubt, just like other careers there are some people who will do it all and put everything on the line for their job and some people who see it just as a paycheck and will function just enough to keep their job; no profession is a stranger to this. I think there are perfectly functioning nurses at all levels, whether someone is a LVN/LPN, ADN, or Ph.D, if they learn there stuff while in school and are deticated to the job I don't see why they would have to start out at X point to deserve their job.

kuhRN · Feb 20, 2012

"AACN and other authorities believe that education has a strong impact on a nurse's ability to practice, and that patients deserve the best educated nursing workforce possible. A growing body of research reinforces this belief and shows a connection between baccalaureate education and lower mortality rates."

This came straight from the AACNs webpage.Educational Levels of Hospital Nurses and Surgical Patient Mortality, September 24, 2003, Aiken et al. 290 (12): 1617 American Association of Colleges of Nursing | Creating a More Highly Qualified Nursing Workforce(Scroll down to where it says "Research linking Nursing....")

Both of these websites will provide you with the "proof" you requested. I can understand why you would think research from JAMA could be biased so I included the link from the AACN. If the research is good enough for them to publish it is good enough for me too.

wbrighton · Feb 20, 2012

Hmm... I was able to complete an AASN in 15 months in a non traditional accelerated program, going to class 50 weeks of the year and completing the same texts and tests of traditional programs. While most people would look at that as a negative, learning studies show that 6 months after you learn something you only retain 85% of what you learned, and that after a year, you retain about 50%. In the end, a lot of the graduates and people who work in the area near my school desired to work with our students because they were more dedicated and motivated to succeed, and were more knowledgeable than graduates of 4 year programs, and we also had as many or more clinical hours than some of the 4 year graduates at the end of our program. I think in the end, these full immersion accelerated programs are going to be the future for the 2 year grads, and lead to better nurses being produced.

PMFB-RN, RN · Feb 20, 2012

I am not surprised that at some point they would switch to requiring a BSN because people judge other people by what degree they have, whether it applies to the job or not.

*** In 16 years working in ICU, ER, critical care transport, and now rapid response I have never experienced that. I have worked in a number of large and small hospitals in 4 states and in my experience nurses (and for that matter doctors) are NOT judged by what degree they have, but rather by their competence and attitude. IN some hospital systems nobody has any idea what degree a nurse has unless you ask them. In others it is printed on their name badge but I can't tell a difference. Good, competent nurses who know their job, advocate for their patients, help their fellow nurses as needed, and who have a pleasant attitude are respected regardless of their degree. Those who have a bad attitude, and/or are incompetent are not respected regardless of their degree. A nurse with an MSN who regularly misses changes in their patients will be held in contempt in critical care environments.

allnurses Guide · Feb 20, 2012

"AACN and other authorities believe that education has a strong impact on a nurse’s ability to practice, and that patients deserve the best educated nursing workforce possible. A growing body of research reinforces this belief and shows a connection between baccalaureate education and lower mortality rates."
This came straight from the AACNs webpage.Educational Levels of Hospital Nurses and Surgical Patient Mortality, September 24, 2003, Aiken et al. 290 (12): 1617 American Association of Colleges of Nursing | Creating a More Highly Qualified Nursing Workforce(Scroll down to where it says "Research linking Nursing....")
Both of these websites will provide you with the "proof" you requested. I can understand why you would think research from JAMA could be biased so I included the link from the AACN. If the research is good enough for them to publish it is good enough for me too.

In other words you're presenting a biased source to strengthen the case of the unbiased source?

I doubt you'll find anyone who disagrees with the notion that education has a strong impact on a nurse's ability to practice, or that patients deserve the best-educated workforce possible. The problem here is that you're trusting as your only authority the people who have a direct and personal stake in the outcome of such "studies". The JAMA doesn't vouch for everything it publishes.

You're buying into the idea that education is either on their terms or not at all, which of course is ridiculous.

When they can come up with something more definitive than "linked to", "associated with" or "a correlation was found" I'll stand by those who say there is no "proof". When you include the factors that would need to be isolated before proof can be claimed, you'll find some very large hurdles to take on.

In the meantime - if I ever have the chance to choose an ADN or diploma nurse with 20 years of experience in infectious disease for a family member with multiple co-morbidities over the brand new BSN who took care of a surgical patient in Pennsylvania who had the best surgeon in the country take out his gallbladder - I'll go with the first one.

DoGoodThenGo · Feb 20, 2012

brandon
That is not the way it works here in Canada, the education requirements for a registered nurse to enter practice is a 4 year degree and the requirements for a practical nurse to enter practice is a 2 year diploma. The curriculum for the 2 year practical nurse program is essentially the old diploma nursing program. The practical nurses in Canada are well prepared to function independently and do not need a RN to delegate to them. In many places in Canada, the registered nurse and the practical nurse take separate patient assignments and the only distinction is the practical nurse is assigned the more stable patients.

Helllooo!

Have been saying the USA should have followed that model since my arrival on these boards.

Apparently everyone and their mother wishes to harp on about one part of the ANA's white paper on BSN nurses and all that has followed, forgetting that body advocated creating a professional nurse from the two or three year program. However the tought of anyone but a four year graduate having the rights to "RN" behind her name was more than some could bear and that helped put the kabosh on that idea.

So now for the most part LPNS have been kicked to the curb from acute care hospitals and CNAs/PCTs are given "extensive" training to perform certain nursing functions.

It does seem that using a BSN in some patient care cases is like swatting a fly with a steam roller. You have highly educated four year (and often four year plus) nurses working on staff at the bedside bored to tears in some cases because it isn't what they were set up to do.

OTHO you have ADN programs trying to compete with mandates and or trends in nursing education clearly meant for BSN programs.

What also gets lost in the debate is that in their most basic forms on average there isn't *that* much difference between the core nursing programs of either two or four year programs. Much of the latter is filled with classes that have absolutley little to no direct relation to patient care. This can be seen in the fact there are more than a handful of ADN to BSN programs where one doesn't have to even set foot inside a classroom or do extra "clinical" assignments.

Regarding the shortage of nurses if the BSN is made mandatory, look around. In most every country where that degree is required for entry into practice (France, UK, etc) there are shortages of nurses. Mind you there are other reasons for this as the practice of the profession varies the world round and so forth, but it does seem odd that the only place with a surplus of "BSN educated" nurses is the Phillipines.

Quite honestly unless state education departments loosen the requirements for those seeking a four year degree in this country then you are going to have all sorts of problems mandating the BSN in many parts of the USA.

As things are now large numbers of high school graduates arrive at college/university doorsteps totally unprepared in science and math skills to pursue a BofS degree. The fact that the USA ranks almost dead last in the developed western world when high school students are tested on those subjects should tell you something.

dishes, BSN, RN · Feb 20, 2012

Hi Dogoodthengo

I to have listened to countless discussion about mandating a degree to enter practice as a registered nurse. Initially, when I graduated from a diploma nursing program in the 1980's, I did not think Canada was going to mandate degrees, as there was too much talk that it would create a nursing shortage. As time went on, and we moved closer to mandating, there became a variety of ways to obtain a nursing degree and this variety in education paths, has increased opportunities for students who would not have had the prerequisites to enter a traditional 4 year university degree program. IMO, Canada's mandating a degree, has increased enrollment in nursing programs and has resulted in more grads than ever before.

dishes, BSN, RN · Feb 20, 2012

I am so glad I finished my degree, I never have to read or regurgitate a paper on nursing education and patient outcomes again. When I was in a post-diploma BScN program, I grew very tired of patient safety being tied to level of education. After I graduated, I felt like I had to purge myself of the parts of nursing education that I considered to be BS, so I burnt the nursing theory text and the articles on patient safety and nursing education.