So, about two weeks ago I had a very unpleasant interaction with my patients primary provider. I was in the patients room with him and they were talking about the care plan, when the patient directly asked me a question. It was nothing medical related, and not anything relevant to what they had been talking about, but I answered the question. I then went to the nursing station to chart while they continued. The doctor came raging out and started to yell at me for undermining him in there. This is in front of about 15 people. According to him, I should not even talk when he is in with a patient. In the middle of his rant. I interrupted him and frankly said, " There is no reason for you to be so disrespectful towards me, and if there is anything else you need to let me know, feel free once you decide to behave like a professional." and left. I was later pulled aside by my charge (who witnessed the entire thing) and told that it was unprofessional for me to "point" and raise my voice in front of everyone.
I just cannot believe that I was pretty much being told not to stand up for myself.
Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
I think this is something we all agree on. Being yelled at, especially in front of others is never appropriate. I don't believe anyone has excused that. Beyond that, what happened between the 3 people in the room, all we know is that the doctor reacted with anger, inappropriately expressed. To say more than that without more details is further speculation. I can imagine a number of scenarios in which a quick detour is fine, and others in which it would be detrimental, so I think it's best if I just bow out of this discussion now.
I'm not even sure that the doctor's anger was inappropriate or inappropriately expressed. All we have is the OP's side of the story. It could be that the doctor didn't even raise his voice -- just took a firm tone with her, which she interpreted as "yelling." I wouldn't have believed this a few years ago, but it seems that a large number of new entrants into the work force seem to interpret ANY communication that they don't like as "yelling." I've seen too many interactions where someone took a firm tone with the newbie (because they just weren't getting the seriousness of the message) and the newbie went running off complaining that they were "yelled at" when no actual yelling -- or inappropriate communication of any kind -- occurred.
My favorite revenge was on a thoracic resident who was a complete horse's ass. After a run in with him, I decided to have some fun at his expense. I was a night nurse so paging somebody at 0400 wasn't a problem for me. It is pretty much the peak of the physiological lull most people experience when they are least alert.
Anyway, back in those days you could get any number in the the hospital by dialing just the last four digits in their phone number. So I paged this jerk to 9911 a few times in the wee hours of the morning, trusting that he'd fall for it more than once due to exhaustion.
9 got him an outside line; 911 got him the police emergency dispatcher. I doubt they were nearly as amused as I was. And I was...quite a bit.
Shame on you for playing a prank on a dedicated, hard working physician! That poor man needed his sleep!
Ok, that's out of the way. Seriously? That's one of the best pranks EVER-not one to be used lightly. You deserve a reward.
It is never appropriate for a physician to rage at a nurse or vice versa. I am a nursing supervisor in an ED and I do not tolerate that type of behavior either from physicians or my nursing staff. I do think it completely appropriate for nurses to stand up for themselves when that occurs. You do it quietly and professionally and then walk away!
"Standing up for yourself" does not mean raising your voice and pointing when a colleague is airing a legitimate grievance.
It was not a legitimate grievance, he was having a power trip. He did not want me talking while he was in the room. If that is a legitimate reason to berate someone, I feel sorry for you. You need more respect for yourself. Secondly, I never put my finger in his face, which was specified. (Maybe read the thread before being rude) And I actually really appreciate it when people are real enough to pull me aside and give me feedback, positive or negative. I am very much a perfectionist, and if I can do something better, I will.
I don't understand something...,why did the physician think you were undermining him if the patient asked a medically unrelated question and you answered it?
That confuses me.
Thank you! That is exactly what I was wondering myself.
First of all, it was rude for this patient to interrupt the physician while he was giving discharge instructions.
The Op said "it was nothing medical related." The mode of transportation to a facility is a medical decision and the nurse should know that.
An ambulance transfer requires a physician certificate of medical necessity for Medicare reimbursement.
If this patient could safely go to rehab by privately owned vehicle, then this physician was justified in feeling undermined. I can see how the whole scenario could be a huge source a frustration for a physician.
However, he was not justified in publicly lashing out at
I must say I completely agree with you and I am ashamed of your nurse manager for not standing up for you. There have been many times I have been in the room with a patient and they have directed their question to me I answered it quickly and directed them back to what the doctor was discussing. Many times I have in front of the MD as well told the patient we will continue our discussion after the doctor has completed their part. None of those Mds were pissed or disrespected me. It sounds as if you quickly and concisely answered the question and you left the room you did not keep an unnecessary conversation going. This doctor sounds like a jerk who has a god complex and in no way should he have disrespected you. If he doesn't want you to speak he could have pulled you to the side and discussed it with you at a more appropriate time. It seems as if he was trying to assert his power and puff up his chest in front of everyone and show you who is boss. By the way I am not a new nurse! I wish I had your gumption when I was a new nurse to stand up for myself like that. You will make a great nurse do not let ******* doctors and a scared nurse manager stop you from this career.
Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
It is never appropriate for a physician to rage at a nurse or vice versa. I am a nursing supervisor in an ED and I do not tolerate that type of behavior either from physicians or my nursing staff. I do think it completely appropriate for nurses to stand up for themselves when that occurs. You do it quietly and professionally and then walk away!
The difficulty I'm seeing with the original post as that the poster "stood up for herself" neither quietly nor professionally. And THATs the part that I consider inappropriate.
Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
It was not a legitimate grievance, he was having a power trip. He did not want me talking while he was in the room. If that is a legitimate reason to berate someone, I feel sorry for you. You need more respect for yourself. Secondly, I never put my finger in his face, which was specified. (Maybe read the thread before being rude) And I actually really appreciate it when people are real enough to pull me aside and give me feedback, positive or negative. I am very much a perfectionist, and if I can do something better, I will.
I've read the whole thread. I've read the original post.
I am not entirely sure that the physician did not have a legitimate grievance BEFORE you raised your voice and pointed your finger. I AM entirely sure he did AFTER.
Please don't feel sorry for ME. No one has berated me at work (as opposed to on AN) for decades. Perhaps because I not only have respect for myself, but also for my colleagues.
the nurse's should not have to be perfect, for you as charge to defend her/him.
In the event that a physician or surgeon was being verbally abusive eto one of the nursing staff, I, as a charge nurse would back the nurse. Provided that the nurse's behavior was above reproach. If the nurse was yelling, pointing fingers and acting without manners or professionalism, I wouldn't back the nurse. In that case, I'd explain to the nurse where her behavior was unprofessional and rude. It's not my place as charge nurse to explain to the physician how he could improve HIS behavior . . . unless, again, the nurse's behavior was thoroughly professional.
In the original post, the nurse admitted to raising her voice and pointing her finger. Unprofessional. THAT is my business as charge nurse. As far as the physician's behavior -- I can always refer that to HIS boss.
Ruby Vee, BSN
17 Articles; 14,051 Posts
I'm not even sure that the doctor's anger was inappropriate or inappropriately expressed. All we have is the OP's side of the story. It could be that the doctor didn't even raise his voice -- just took a firm tone with her, which she interpreted as "yelling." I wouldn't have believed this a few years ago, but it seems that a large number of new entrants into the work force seem to interpret ANY communication that they don't like as "yelling." I've seen too many interactions where someone took a firm tone with the newbie (because they just weren't getting the seriousness of the message) and the newbie went running off complaining that they were "yelled at" when no actual yelling -- or inappropriate communication of any kind -- occurred.