I am taking classes towards my BSN because like other nurses with a diploma or ADN I am being "forced" to return to school for my BSN. I have had my ADN for 9 years. My question is HOW is statistics, critical inquiry, and the other classes going to make me a better nurse? Isn't hands on training the best way to learn? I feel like they are requiring BSN now and in 10 years want MSN so that we wont need doctors working on the floors, because nurses will do their own orders!!
I am 42 y/o and rally don't want to do this, but I have a minimum of 23 years left of working and had to be forced to stay where I am due to not having a BSN. Sure they say we may be "grandfathered" in, but that limits us to stay put.
Anyone have any input on this, as to what am I going to learn getting my BSN and why the requirement now?
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Here'swhat I believe I have heard you saying; the ANA has falsely promoted a"nursing shortage" in an effort to flood the market with newRNs[/quote
While I have observed that happening I do not believe the ANA is behind it. I believe the glut of nurses was deliberately created by those who stand to gain financially from a glut of nurses, namely employers of nurses like large health systems,and schools of nursing. In particular for profit schools of nursing, but also public schools of nursing who have seen a lot of funding come their way from state and federal governments to create/expand their programs.
I have been in nursing for 18 years, have worked as a staff RN in 4 states, two countries, and done travel assignments in another 4 or 5 states. I have never seen more than a highly local nursing shortage, usually a result ofsubstandard management creating terrible working conditions, thus causing nurses to vote with their feet.
They also want more BSNs out there
Well they say they do. Their actions don't match up with that though. IMO more BSN prepared RN is only a distant and secondary goal for the ANA. If it was actually their goal they would have advocated for the well worn, and proven successful path taken by Canada, and in the US, by other health professions. That of declaring a date far enough in the future to give students and schools time to come up with their own creative ways of meeting the new standard after which the new standard degree will be required to sit for the NCLEX and grandfathering in all those who became nurses under the old standard. That way we would have an every increasing percentage of BSN prepared RNs until one day the last diploma or ADN RN would retire and we would have an all BSN or MSN workforce.
It is my opinion that this path would have resulted in far less opposition and has a much better likelihood of happening.
and disdain ADN nurses. I really just want to know your opinion. I readyour postings here frequently and you are very well-spoken (written?) anddemonstrate significant intelligence and thought; that is why I'm curious.
Thank you. In my career I have observed and heard BSN and MSN grads express dismay and frustration at the obvious advantages ADN prepared RNs have over them. Based on many things I have heard said by such nurses some of them are frustrated by the fact that they worked so hard in high school to get accepted to a good college, then worked hard in college and spent a lot of money earning their BSN, only to enter the workforce and find their peers who became RNs in only two years at a community college and who now have two years of work experience and possibly have also earned their RN to BSN, in some cases on the hospital's dime.
Think of two high school seniors who both want to be RNs
Jane works very hard in high school getting top grades. Maybe she missed out on some things in high school due to her desire to get good grades. Jane is then accepted to her state's flagship university and spends 4 years earning her BSN. She also barrows something like $60K in student loans and will soon have a$600/month student loan payment.
Tom had a lot of fun in high school and didn't devote as much effort as Jane to academics. He got good grades in high school and graduated with a solid 3.5GPA. He then enrolls in the local community college ADN program and graduates in two years for a cost of around $7K. He then gets hired into the critical care nurse residency program of a large hospital and uses the hospital's tuition assistance program to enroll in an RN to BSN program. Two years later he graduates from the BSN program. He now has two solid years of work experience,got paid something like $120K over two years, has his BSN, no student debt, and is perfectly set up to apply to CRNA or NP school, or to assistant nurse manager positions in his hospital.
Meanwhile, after four years at University Jane graduates with her BSN and is hired into the same hospital as Tom. Where she may find herself assigned to Tom for orientation. Both have their BSN at the end of four years but Jane is a brand new grad, has made no money in the last four years, and has a huge loan payment.
I have seen very similar scenarios played out a number times, and heard the"Jane's" express frustration about it.
I suspect that the ANA is made up of "Janes" and would like to see the "Toms" slapped down a little.
It is very difficult for me to conceive of another explanation for the path to an all BSN workforce advocated for by the ANA. It's difficult for me to imagine a path more likely to create angst and resentment than that expressed by the ANA in their white paper.
That and the entire body of research shows improved patient outcomes.
On the Nursing News Forum there is currently a thread "New Study Shows Nurse Education Level, Caseload, Affect Patient Mortality Rates." The claims this study made were well refuted by one poster on that thread. Other similar research claims have been refuted in many threads on AN.
On the Nursing News Forum there is currently a thread "New Study Shows Nurse Education Level Caseload, Affect Patient Mortality Rates." The claims this study made were well refuted by one poster on that thread. Other similar research claims have been refuted in many threads on AN.[/quote']
So where the published studies refuting the findings? There are now almost a dozen major studies that all demonstrate the same findings. I have yet to see a single major study that refutes any of those.
The claims this study made were well refuted by one poster on that thread. Other similar research claims have been refuted in many threads on AN.
There's a big difference between refuting the findings of a study versus questioning the research methods. Refuting would be proving through new research. Questioning the research methods is not invalid, it is a legitimate starting point to begin new research. We should always be questioning research, but it can't stop there.
Their actions don't match up with that though. IMO more BSN prepared RN is only a distant and secondary goal for the ANA. If it was actually their goal they would have advocated for the well worn, and proven successful path taken by Canada, and in the US, by other health professions.
I suspect that the ANA is made up of "Janes" and would like to see the "Toms" slapped down a little.
It is very difficult for me to conceive of another explanation for the path to an all BSN workforce advocated for by the ANA. It's difficult for me to imagine a path more likely to create angst and resentment than that expressed by the ANA in their white paper.
I would like to know more about the process Canada used to move to BSN as entry-level. From what I understand, the ANA does not have the power to decide who will be designated as RNs, they don't accredit the schools and they don't decide who can take the NCLEX-RN. They could make this declaration and it would be for naught without support from 50 boards of nursing.
Understanding the ANA's powerlessness over determining the entry-level for RN practice, I guess I can understand where you might feel that they have the need to "pick on" the ADN nurse out of bitterness. While I believe the ANA is quite frustrated; I respectfully disagree that is is inspired by some kind of vengefulness.
I really appreciate the active and well-thought debate from you (PMFB-RN). I don't always agree with you, but you always keep it classy and make me think a little harder.
Of course the ADN grad isn't going to be able to get a job in a hospital is lots of areas. I have to say that non of my ADN students over the last 2-3 year have had trouble getting acute care jobs in our area, but I know it isn't like that everywhere.
As for your what is the point comment. If I were you I would address that to all the direct entry MSN programs out there. They take people off the street who have a degree in something, charge them graduate level tuition for a basic nursing education that other schools are selling for under grade rates, and graduating brand new RN MSN's unqualified for anything except entry level RN jobs.
Lets think about this for a second. Two high school grads want to become RNs. Tom's parents are pretty wealthy so he can enroll in his local university's BSN program and Bob, since his parents barely make enough money to get by, enrolls in the local community college ADN. Two years later Bob graduates from nursing school and goes to work in a hospital. using one of the benefits of his job he enrolls in a two year long RN to MSN program.
Two years later, a total of 4 years since they both started nursing school, Tom is a brand new grad with his BSN in hand. He gets hired at the same hospital as Bob, but Bob is now Bob, RN, MSN, and has two solid years of nursing experience under his belt, probably has his CCRN or other certification, plus Bob got paid round $120K over the last two years and was able to pay off the small student loans he took out for nursing school. Bob is well set up to apply for assistant nurse manager jobs, or other non bedside jobs like education, QI and others. Or he could apply to CRNA or NP school if his two years experience were in ICU.
How is Tom going to feel about this situation? Do you think Tom might regret the BSN path he took? Might there be some resentment on Tom's part? Maybe not, since both were recent high school graduates Tom had one heck of a lot of fun drinking and chasing girls at the university that Bob missed out on at the community college.
Now we quite simply can not have things like this happening to our University BSN grads. Something must be done. What is being done is that nurses like Bob won't be hired and thus can not make Tom regret all the partying err I mean hard work he put in at the university BSN program.
Can you name some of these colleges that give a MSN degree in two years to the ADN grads? Thanks.
There's a big difference between refuting the findings of a study versus questioning the research methods. Refuting would be proving through new research. Questioning the research methods is not invalid, it is a legitimate starting point to begin new research. We should always be questioning research, but it can't stop there.
Have you read the thread I referred to above? My dictionary defines the word refute as: to show (a claim, opinion, or argument) to be false or incorrect.
Have you read the thread I referred to above? My dictionary defines the word refute as: to show (a claim, opinion, or argument) to be false or incorrect.
I have read the thread; it's on my notification list, I added comments # 23, 24 & 27.
I hate to get into a definitions debate. To me; "to show" means through evidence, at least when it comes to such a serious topic. The people that question the methods of the other study (why are we debating this on this thread?) are asking valid questions, but they have "shown" nothing, except that they question the methods. I welcome them to show, prove or refute the results.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
From what I understand, the ANA does not have the power to decide who will be designated as RNs, they don't accredit the schools and they don't decide who can take the NCLEX-RN. They could make this declaration and it would be for naught without support from 50 boards of nursing.
Understanding the ANA's powerlessness over determining the entry-level for RN practice,
Oh I very much disagree. The ANA is very powerful in this matter. True they are not a regulatory body but people, especialy those in power like congress, listen to them.
I
guess I can understand where you might feel that they have the need to "pick on" the ADN nurse out of bitterness. While I believe the ANA is quite frustrated; I respectfully disagree that is is inspired by some kind of vengefulness.
Sure we can agree to disagree. I just can't imagine what else would inspire them to advocate for such a mean, degrading and insulting process. If the real goal in an all BSN nursing workforce why not simply advocate for that and use the well proven path already taken by Canada, PT, pharmacy and others?
I really appreciate the active and well-thought debate from you (PMFB-RN). I don't always agree with you, but you always keep it classy and make me think a little harder
These posts (the OP) intrigue me. If you do not wish to obtain a degree, feel it is not appropriate for your life circumstances, or just object to the decree based on principle, refuse to pursue it. Do not obtain the BSN. The end.
However, if you been advised by the administrators at your place of employment that you should, do not be surprised if you find yourself in an undesirable position later. Them's the breaks.
Do it, don't do it. The choice and the consequences are yours and I support your right to make the choice so long as you acknowledge that you will be responsible for the outcome. But for pity's sake, just make the decision and stop whining about it.
Why do you need a BSN OP? Apparently to keep your job. You do what they tell you to do or yo do not get to remain employed by that institution. Pretty simple. If you don't want to keep this job, get a different one that isn't going to force you to get a BSN against your will. Arrange flowers, walk dogs, blog.
I'm not just picking on the OP here. The whole nursing culture complaining about the push for degreed preparation for practice is ridiculous. If you don't want to comply, just don't.
PMFB-RN, RN
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