Why hire RN's when other disciplines can do the job

SE_BSN_RN, BSN · Nov 15, 2011

Again I'll state I think a pharmacist giving an injection at a pharmacy is perfectly acceptable since the pharmacist does hold a much higher degree than the average flu shot nurse.
Its the CNA/PCA/MA/CMA/YMCA issue that worries me.

Agreed.

kalevra, BSN, RN · Nov 15, 2011

Many of these places might be "contracting" out work typically done by registered nurses because registered nurses might be hard to come by.
My concern with companies that abide by this practice could be unsafe. Let us assume that a pharmacist administers a shot and the client has a bad reaction to it. Will the pharmacist have the training to recognize and react to the situation?:uhoh21:

Nurses take a pharmacology class for 1 maybe 2 semesters, Pharmacists have a few years of far more detailed Pharmacology. I am pretty sure that they know what contraindications and adverse effects look like after 8 years learning about the drugs you are giving to people. If a 16 year old teen can learn CPR I bet you a 30 something with an 8 year degree can learn CPR as well. I also bet you that that same 30 something pharmacist can also dial 911.

PetERNurse · Nov 21, 2011

What you wrote is a general term. You should also know that some states hold the term "nurse" in the legal aspect as someone who is an RN or LVN. So if a CNA in one of these states introduces themselves as a "nurse" then they are actually misrepresenting themselves. It has to do a lot with scope of practice issues. This has been talked to death multiple times.

I akin this to saying only those who have a degree in automotive engineering can call themselves "mechanics". or saying those with a degree in veterinary nursing cannot call themselves a "nurse" (which they are). I think RN's hold onto the "nurse" thing a little too tightly sometimes. Remember, nurse is a common noun, not a proper noun. :jester:

The term "doctor" is a common noun too, and is not/should not be "protected" (not saying people should call themselves a doctor even when they don't have the education).

I think if RNs want title protection, another title should be used that is a little more descriptive than one that has so many connotations. The argument that "those who haven't worked as hard for the education shouldn't recieve the title" is skewed in my mind; the title you have earned is "registered nurse" (which is a huge accomplishment by the way). If I was going to hold on to anything, that would be it.

I think anyone involved in nursing a patient could rightfully consider themselves a nurse (by definition), and it is our duty to correctly introduce ourselves: "Hello I am Jamie, your registered nurse." "Hi, I am Jack, your nurse assistant." I think if you are introducing yourself as "John, your nurse", you are only perpetuating the confusion. This is why it is so important to have a visible, easy-to-read badge with your name and title. :yeah:

http://www.nursingpower.net/nursing/origen.html

JerseyBSN · Nov 21, 2011

There are places that hire only RN's and LPN's and respect their nurses. I'm thankful to work in such a place.

Yes the MA issue has been beat to death but it needs to be. Something needs to be done. Doctors have no problems calling their MA their "nurse" but would they like it if their NP referred to themselves as the "doctor"? I see no difference. Neither should be allowed!

PeepnBiscuitsRN · Nov 21, 2011

I think money would be better spent lobbying for legislation that makes some procedures as RN ONLY procedures. For example it would be illegal for a Pharmacist to push immunizations at a pharmacy. If it becomes an RN ONLY procedure then you would have to hire an RN. Prevents firing of RNs to be replaced by MA/CNA.

I don't think you have to worry about RN's being replaced by CMA's, or MA's- it's the LPN's who have to worry about that. I worked for 4 years as an LPN in a clinic- and I guess I should clarify- LPN's who work in outpatient settings like clinics might be more concerned about being replaced by CMA's than LPN's who work in LTC/TCU. When I was looking for a job as an LPN I had a hard time because many clinics were not hiring LPN's and only hiring CMA's because a CMA could draw blood, run tests, do x-rays and also do administrative duties, plus, they were about 7.00 cheaper to pay.

But now I've noticed CMA's are really only doing the patient care aspect of the job. There are lab techs who can draw blood and run tests, there are rad techs who do x-rays, and there are medical office assistants who do the administrative work and it's really all very specialized. So, CMA's are essentially doing the same things an LPN does in the clinic, and they're cheaper- and there are CMA programs all over the place that are quicker and easier than LPN programs. It's a quick entrance into the medical field.

As for the hospital scene: I love the CNA's I work with. They're so on top of things, they communicate well, they're flexible and they're a huge help because sometimes I can't do everything. Sure, I work nights and it's more calm than days and evenings but if I'm in the middle of an admit who has active chest pain and Mr. Bob's bed alarm goes off again for the 22nd time in an hour I can't just drop what I'm doing and run down the hall to stop Bob from getting out of bed- especially when it will set off an interaction similar to trying to reason with my 3 year old when he's dead set on doing something. So PCA's- :up:

And our Respiratory Therapists- love 'em. In nursing school we never learned about CPAP and BiPAP machines so I'm pretty grateful for our RT's who happily pop up to make the machine stop beeping every 7 seconds, and administer that duo-neb while they're at it. Sure I know how to administer nebs (LPN...clinic...) but again, it's nice to have the help.

I've talked to a lot of seasoned nurses who have been doing this since like...Woodstock, and they say it's all circular- what's going on now, went on 30 years ago, and what was the trend in 1987 will be the trend again in the coming years... it's all circular. I just try to have a positive attitude.

And as for "I have the time" and the scripts...if I woke up some of my patients with that line I'd probably get as far as "I have-" before they threw a bedpan at me. :lol2: I hate scripts, they sound so phony and the patient knows it's a script which makes it all the more insulting.

chevyv, BSN, RN · Nov 21, 2011

Where I'm at currently, they told all of the RN's in orientation that the only reason we're there is because they need our license and that if they could get away with it, we wouldn't be there at all. We're too expensive. :devil: :mad: :devil:

kalevra, BSN, RN · Nov 24, 2011

I akin this to saying only those who have a degree in automotive engineering can call themselves "mechanics". or saying those with a degree in veterinary nursing cannot call themselves a "nurse" (which they are). I think RN's hold onto the "nurse" thing a little too tightly sometimes. Remember, nurse is a common noun, not a proper noun.
The term "doctor" is a common noun too, and is not/should not be "protected" (not saying people should call themselves a doctor even when they don't have the education).
I think if RNs want title protection, another title should be used that is a little more descriptive than one that has so many connotations. The argument that "those who haven't worked as hard for the education shouldn't recieve the title" is skewed in my mind; the title you have earned is "registered nurse" (which is a huge accomplishment by the way). If I was going to hold on to anything, that would be it.
I think anyone involved in nursing a patient could rightfully consider themselves a nurse (by definition), and it is our duty to correctly introduce ourselves: "Hello I am Jamie, your registered nurse." "Hi, I am Jack, your nurse assistant." I think if you are introducing yourself as "John, your nurse", you are only perpetuating the confusion. This is why it is so important to have a visible, easy-to-read badge with your name and title.
http://www.nursingpower.net/nursing/origen.html

This topic has been talked to death before, feel free to click this link and catch up https://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/okay-cna-call-557493.html

It is no where akin to calling your self a mechanic. As I have said before some states protect the term nurse click on this link for an example and scroll to Title Protection http://www.nysna.org/images/pdfs/practice/scope/rn_uap_guidelines04.pdf

The term nurse involves the states nurse's scope of practice. In other words what they can legally do. CNAs cannot start IVs but RNs can, there has to be a way to differentiate between these two titles and most importantly their level of responsibility.

Yes there are name badges in hospitals that have your title on there but I know of CNAs that still say hi I am your nurse. On top of that most patients or their families do not know the difference between an RN,LVN or CNA. Usually most patients just assume anyone not in a whit lab coat is a nurse.

As far as I know I do not think the term mechanic is legally protected in any state. Feel free to send me a reliable link informing me other wise.

If you want to go into a hospital with only a CNA certificate then walk around and introduce yourself to patients as a Nurse well feel free. See what management, other RNs, and other LVNs have to say. I am pretty sure they will inform you to stop. Then if you continue to misrepresent yourself, further action will follow. Most hospitals have policies preventing misrepresentation and they follow policies because they do not want to be sued by patients or their family.

You can call yourself what ever you want, until the law catches up to you.

kalevra, BSN, RN · Nov 24, 2011

http://www.nursingpower.net/nursing/origen.html

Try using a more reliable site other than someones personal hobby site to source your information. There are far more reliable sources you can use to get information from like the state nurse practice act, state nursing association and even your state BON. It makes me wonder as to why did you choose this site over the first 5 that pops up on google or most other search engines. The site is not reliable and I recommend not using a hobby site to prove a point. Especially one that sites their information from 1996.

Many things have changed since the page went up. You need to factor in the current legal landscape of the profession.

caliotter3 · Nov 24, 2011

Where I'm at currently, they told all of the RN's in orientation that the only reason we're there is because they need our license and that if they could get away with it, we wouldn't be there at all. We're too expensive.

There's something to be said for honesty.

OCNRN63, RN · Nov 24, 2011

From her other posts in the past....it needed to be mentioned. Too many comments specifically about RNs being nurses.
https://allnurses.com/nursing-career-advice/how-do-you-627271.html#post5738633
A comment about becoming an LPN or medical assistant to get your feet wet before going into nursing.
uuuugghhhhhhh!!!!!!
BTW, after seeing so many posts where she spelled congratulations wrong.....its not congradulations....sorry, but it really was just as annoying as reading LPN's aren't nurses.

Meanwhile, back to the original topic...

OCNRN63, RN · Nov 24, 2011

I think it just has to be mentioned. It's a little funny to me that so many people want to separate RNs and put them on this pedestal so far above LPNs because they have more education. Yet, so many of these same people don't want to admit that a BSN has more education than an ADN.... so does that mean they should be set apart as well?
Also, someone posted that the world needs to know that their care is being administered by someone who doesn't earn more than a Starbucks employee. Who cares? Is a person's education or expertise really defined by their paycheck? I'm a CNA, just starting out in tele, and I can already see that a lot of RNs ask the other CNAs questions because in some areas, we are better trained than they are. It's not about who's better or worse, all of these professions have different responsibilities and each one is equally important. If you don't think so, try working a night as an RN without any of your CNAs or techs there.

We have no CNAs/techs in my unit. The RNs do it all: patient care, walking people to the BR, fetching snacks, cleaning off treatment chairs/beds, trash, taking soiled linens to the laundry, etc.

allnurses Guide · Nov 24, 2011

AMEN!!! I have also warned about the encroachment on nursings professional practice. Our professional practice is being stripped away, with the intent to "wean" the public from nurses at their bedside. What better way than to continue to eliminate the need for nurses.
It is IMPERATIVE that nurses band together and educate the public! Other professions hold onto their professional practice like glue. Teachers, PTs, OTs, Pharmacists. In some cases, professions like pharmacy, are taking over what used to be an exclusive domain for nurses.
Nurses, wise up and organize today! If we wait any longer, we will not have a profession to fight for!
JMHO and my NY $0.02.
Lindarn, RN, BSN,CCRN
Somewhere in the PACNW

Exactly! This is the point I try to make when people say there will be a flood of new jobs when a)the economy improves, b)the Baby Boomers all retire at once and c) "Obamacare" kicks in and millions of uninsured people seek care at once.

All of those seem plausible at first glance, but all of them are based on a fixed set of assumptions for which there is no real evidence, and requires the belief that the premises are correct (highly debatable) and that there are no alternative responses. Nothing really wrong with wishful thinking, except for all the debt and hard work involved here.

It doesn't mean you need to give up on your dreams of being a nurse, but go in with real information at hand, and do course correction at each step of the journey as the reality around you changes.