Why Failing Med Students Don't Get Failing Grades ...

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Interesting discussion re difficulty failing medical students compared to how nursing educators view need for safe practitioners.

Why Failing Med Students Don't Get Failing Grades ... - Well

NY Times

February 28, 2013

By Pauline W. Chen, M.D.

...I first noticed her when I overheard her quarreling with a nurse. A few months later I heard her accuse another student of sabotaging her work. And then one morning, I saw her storm off the wards after a senior doctor corrected a presentation she had just given. The patient never told me that!” she cried. The nurses and I stood agape as we watched her stamp her foot and walk away.

Why don't you just fail her?” one of the nurses asked the doctor.

I can't,” she sighed, explaining that the student did extremely well on all her tests and worked harder than almost anyone in her class. The problem,” she said, is that we have no multiple choice exams when it comes to things like clinical intuition, communication skills and bedside manner.”

Medical educators have long understood that good doctoring, like ducks, elephants and obscenity, is easy to recognize but difficult to quantify. And nowhere is the need to catalog those qualities more explicit, and charged, than in the third year of medical school, when students leave the lecture halls and begin to work with patients and other clinicians in specialty-based courses referred to as clerkships.” In these clerkships, students are evaluated by senior doctors and ranked on their nascent doctoring skills, with the highest-ranking students going on to the most competitive training programs and jobs.

A student's performance at this early stage, the traditional thinking went, would be predictive of how good a doctor she or he would eventually become.

But in the mid-1990s, a group of researchers decided to examine grading criteria and asked directors of internal medicine clerkship courses across the country how accurate and consistent they believed their grading to be. Nearly half of the course directors believed that some form of grade inflation existed, even within their own courses. Many said they had increasing difficulty distinguishing students who could not achieve a minimum standard,” whatever that might be. And over 40 percent admitted they had passed students who should have failed their course. ...

...But for many of these educators, the real issue was not flunking the flagrantly unprofessional student, but rather evaluating and helping the student who only needed a little extra help in transitioning from classroom problem sets to real world patients. Most faculty received little or no training or support in evaluating students, few came from institutions that had remediation programs to which they could direct students, and all worked under grading systems that were subjective and not standardized.

Despite the disheartening findings, Dr. Fazio and her co-investigators believe that several continuing initiatives may address the evaluation issues. For example, residency training programs across the country will soon be assessing all doctors-in-training with a national standards list, a series of defined skills, or competencies,” in areas like interpersonal communication, professional behavior and specialty-specific procedures. Over the next few years, medical schools will likely be adopting a similar system for medical students, creating a national standard for all institutions....

I agree that it is very difficult to fail a nursing student in clinical, unless they do something clearly unsafe and in direct violation of a policy. Most assessment in nursing clinical is subjective. Where people fail nursing is obviously in didactic content, and I will assume the same of med students. So the nightmare for an instructor is the rare student that is an excellent didactic student and is clueless in clinical. I think the days of the cut-throat nursing instructor are behind us. Colleges simply are not backing students being failed out without clear cut documentation. They want to retain students and avoid appeals or litigation.

I will also add I do not know of anyone who has failed the clinical portion of an NP program. I do know those that have failed out before they reach clinical. I do feel graduate nursing education relies too heavily on RN experience and again, subjective evaluations.

Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.
I agree that it is very difficult to fail a nursing student in clinical, unless they do something clearly unsafe and in direct violation of a policy. Most assessment in nursing clinical is subjective. Where people fail nursing is obviously in didactic content, and I will assume the same of med students. So the nightmare for an instructor is the rare student that is an excellent didactic student and is clueless in clinical. I think the days of the cut-throat nursing instructor are behind us. Colleges simply are not backing students being failed out without clear cut documentation. They want to retain students and avoid appeals or litigation.

I will also add I do not know of anyone who has failed the clinical portion of an NP program. I do know those that have failed out before they reach clinical. I do feel graduate nursing education relies too heavily on RN experience and again, subjective evaluations.

So I agreed with every word you wrote until the last sentence. ;) Imo graduate education doesn't rely heavily enough on actual hands on RN experience and that is one reason I think there are more than a few, at least in psych, NPs who aren't skilled diagnosticians or prescribers.

Specializes in Family Practice.
In my experience going through two NP programs is they are kind of oblivious and ambivalent to whether or not the person will be a skilled practitioner. I don't think anyone flunks out of NP school. The exams are easy, there are more than enough fluffy nurse theory classes, the preceptors are reluctant to give harsh feedback and the schools won't fail anyone due to fear of legal ramifications. While I can't say I felt there are a large amount who will be overtly unsafe but I definitely feel and have seen the results in practice of more than a few psych-NPs who are not good prescribers.

This may be true of diploma mill type schools. I went to a public university in my state that is known for it's rigorous science programs. If you failed a class (anything less than an 80% or B- was a fail), then you got once chance to remediate. If you did not pass again, you were done. I'm not sure the exact number of nurses that didn't make it but it was approximately 10 out of our class of 55.

We might mean the same thing. I believe NP programs are operating on the assumption that their students have 5+ years of solid nursing experience. When the reality is different. Too much focus on theory and research and not enough focus on patho, pharm, assessment.

Specializes in psychiatric.

Just some input. In my ADN program we lost about 3 students in the clinical portion (this was true for each cohort) and it was always due to unsafe practice, like medication issues, or a patient falling on your watch. In my grad program, they are dropping out due to low grades (need an 83 or above to continue in all courses), or unable to take the pressure/pace.

Specializes in LTC Rehab Med/Surg.

Several of our young nurses continued to NP directly after receiving their nursing license.

Their clinical experience was gained while taking their NP courses. That's if they were employed as nurses while in school.

I kept my mouth shut at work, but it's beyond me how a new RN with less than a year M/S experience, can see acutely ill patients as a NP with little to no independent clinical experience.

How is that safe or ethical?

Several of our young nurses continued to NP directly after receiving their nursing license.

Their clinical experience was gained while taking their NP courses. That's if they were employed as nurses while in school.

I kept my mouth shut at work, but it's beyond me how a new RN with less than a year M/S experience, can see acutely ill patients as a NP with little to no independent clinical experience.

How is that safe or ethical?

It seems non sensical but from what many posters here state about their med surg experience, it doesn't always seem to be relevant experience.

Specializes in Family Practice.

Flunking out to me means you have done nothing in the curriculum. Wow!!!

Follow the money.

JMHO and my NY $0.02

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN (ret)

Somewhere in the PACNW

Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.
It seems non sensical but from what many posters here state about their med surg experience, it doesn't always seem to be relevant experience.

It seems to me most of the people saying nursing experience isn't helpful are usually those without any. At least for me my years of floor nursing assessment skills, medication knowledge and seeing the effects of different medications on many patients was priceless as I began practicing as a NP.

Specializes in Med nurse in med-surg., float, HH, and PDN.

With regards to the interns/clerkship clinical experiences, this may seem like a dumb question, but wouldn't they have the option to go toward an MD career that didn't require much bedside manner, like Pathology or Research or Medical Examiners? Or would that be, by that time in their schooling, like switching horses in mid-stream? Just curious.

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