I'm not trying to be argumentative here...I'm asking a serious question because I really don't understand. I also didn't post this over in the ADN vs BSN thread because it's not nearly as active. I also searched for answers (so don't skewar me), and while I found others who asked if it's the same and were simply told 'no it's not'...but I couldn't find an answer to WHY it's not. So here it goes...
I have two B.S. degrees..one in Speech Therapy, and the other in Computer Science (don't ask..life detours keep life interesting).
I am now purusuing a nursing career. My mother was a nurse for 40 years. I keep hearing how I really NEED a BSN to move up in the field. But here's the rub - I have no desire to go back for a THIRD BS degree. I have general education coming out the wazoo. At the most I'm willing to go from an RN-MSN program provided I get tuition help from my employer as I've had enough education expenses thankyouverymuch. But another BS degree...Really?
I am also being told, here and in other places, that a B.S. degree in another field, plus an RN license does NOT equal a BSN. I really don't get that. I have the general education from a 4 year degree (and then some), and I will (God willing) have the RN education which basically encompasses the last 2 years of a BSN program (and the program I will be going through actual has MORE clinical hours than the BSN programs locally). So, 2+2 = BSN in my mind. So why doesn't it?
And don't tell me it's because of this elusive Magnet Status either. Because two of our local hospitals have Magnet status and they not only HIRE ADN's, they RUN hospital based diploma programs which spit out wonderfully prepared diploma nurses...who then get hired at said hospitals. So, the theory that Magnet Status hospitals don't hire anything less than BSN's....well, I'm confused on that too because I keep hearing it here - but the reality seems quite different - at least where I live. Feel free to answer that for me too....
So what I am hearing here is...get your BSN. If you get a diploma or ADN first and you already have a BS degree - then you need to do an RN-BSN program which will include your general education...which i ALREADY have! So, what, I take one or two bridge classes and call it a BSN? It not only seems like a money grab from the Universities, but also a semantic technicality by everyone else. What am I missing?
Please, someone - kindly- explain to me the difference between a BS degree in ANYTHING in CONJUNCTION with an RN license...and a BSN. I really want to know.
I think what the question is... Since a lot of hospitals prefer BSN over ADN for a bedside nurse (which has nothing to do with magnet status), what BSN courses will make a nurse a better bedside nurse that will not be obtained in an ADN program? IMO, if both are RNs, they should be equally as good at being a bedside nurse (assuming same experience). I think we all realize the benefits of a BSN for moving beyond the bedside (e.g. management).
Also, for the graduate school I am looking at, to get into the MSN program, you have to either have a BSN or a non-nursing bachelors + ADN. They view them as being 100% identical in terms of being admitted to a MSN program (to become a NP or CNS).
I think what the question is... Since a lot of hospitals prefer BSN over ADN for a bedside nurse (which has nothing to do with magnet status), what BSN courses will make a nurse a better bedside nurse that will not be obtained in an ADN program? IMO, if both are RNs, they should be equally as good at being a bedside nurse (assuming same experience). I think we all realize the benefits of a BSN for moving beyond the bedside (e.g. management).
Also, for the graduate school I am looking at, to get into the MSN program, you have to either have a BSN or a non-nursing bachelors + ADN. They view them as being 100% identical in terms of being admitted to a MSN program (to become a NP or CNS).
The Bachelors + ADN to get accepted into an MSN program does make some sense if you look at it like this... The nursing classes at the bachelors and masters level can be very similar, but the masters portion is asked to do more in the class such as write a paper or give a well researched presentation on a specific topic. Some of my upper level biology classes (300's and 400's) were like this. I could choose to take it at the bachelors level or the masters level.
The jump from the lower level classes (100's and 200's) to the bachelors level is quiet large in my opinion. The upper level classes builds upon the prior knowledge and extends it. So you must have had a major in nursing that focuses on the lower and upper level nursing classes in order to receive a BSN. The MSN you are going to get the upper level and the masters level at the same time. I could be wrong, but I have seen several fields that work this way. Some engineering fields that do a 5 year masters. Accounting will do a 5 year masters and so on. I have also seen some P.A. programs doing this. You need so many hours of experience working in the medical field with the associates degree. When you finish you have a masters in P.A.
So, in effect, you are saying that someone with any other kind of degree other than a nursing degree (BSN or higher) shouldn't be in nursing management. Which is what I'm reading from a lot of people. And I honestly don't get that. Because someone with a business degree AND an RN license would seem to me to have a much broader perspective than a BSN alone.
I agree that your education in another field enriches your understanding of the world and should be respected. However, that other education does not eliminate your need to have a solid foundation in nursing before fully qualified to be a nursing leader.
The other education you received may be great -- but you need to add the nursing education before you'll be qualified for positions that require indepth nursing knowledge.
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
No...that is not what we are saying. No one that I can see has said, "Hey, I want to count my business class as a nursing class!". Obviously, that isn't what we are saying. We are saying...the ADN and Diploma programs have classes which transfer into the Universities granting BSN's. The Universities are saying the classes are equal (if you transfer them, of course)...so for those of us who have the general education requirements complete through another degree, AND have COMPLETED the nursing courses through a diploma or ADN program (the same ones that count for credit towards a BSN at the Universities) - then how is that not the same as having a BSN...even if we can't CALL it a BSN. It's a valid question. The courses that are equal are only equal if we transfer them to the University? That's crazy. I understand that there are different classes and I'm conceeding that point and have said that I understand that point...but that being the case, I should only need to take one or two classes that are different from the University and the Diploma program in order to get my BSN...but that's not the case. Additionally, since the diploma program has nearly 1/3 more clinical time than the BSN, one would think I'd get to transfer in MORE credits to the BSN program...but that's not the case either.
Additionally, comparing a PhD program to an associates program is ludacris. I am comparing relative Apple to Apples...a 4 year degree with 2 years of general ed and 2 years of nursing. Not 8 years of schooling with 2 years of schooling....No one here would argue that a PhD and an associates are in any way equal education....
I completely understand your frustration. After years of tracking and trying to get solid answers about nursing education I've come to the conclusion that there is no answer. This profession is beset with changing rationales, inconsistencies, and opinions from the bottom to the top. If you attempt to peel the onion you will end up with pretty much what you got before you started. I know - and have the dents in my forehead to show for it.
The nursing profession has a number of parallel political and social issues that are folded in to it, with good reason, really. Nursing has a unique place in society and a lot of baggage to deal with. Part of the solution to that has been to propose we raise the level of education required to become a nurse aka "single entry point" but if you attempt to find out what exactly is it that you will gain by it other than, as you pointed out -
It just seems like a screwy system made up of people more concerned with TITLES than actual EDUCATION and an educational system all too willing to step in and offer classes to remedy that situation.
However, all those comments from others here about leadership classes, "community health" "research" etc are absolutely true. It's also true that if you were to read another thread here on the same topic, you may hear that it is the not nursing-specific classes you take that makes you "a well-rounded" BSN as opposed to the lesser degrees. There is no one answer to any of it.
People always think I'm knocking education itself when I say this -- nothing could be further from the truth. If you would like to get a little inside viewpoint about how the sausage is made I would say to look at publications from the ANA, the AACN, and a think tank known as the Institute of Medicine. You might be interested in seeing a publication addressed specifically to the recently created degree called "DNP". Not because you want to get a doctorate level degree, but it's comparisons to current nursing doctorate education and it's corresponding similar but different set of letters.
Specializes in ED, Telemetry,Hospice, ICU, Supervisor.
The courses that are equal are only equal if we transfer them to the University?
If you want the University to grant you the BSN you would have to transfer all your transferable units to the University. They then grant you the degree as long as you finish out all other requirements. Keep in mind in order to be granted degree from certain Universities some of your units must come from the university as well. The units must be officially transcribed in their records AND you have to fill out the necessary paper work requesting your degree. If you dont, then you do not have a degree even if you took all the classes.
2 years a ago I took all my units for my AS degree, completely passed all of them and filled out my form to be granted the degree. I missed the deadline and instead of being granted the degree over Summer it was granted to me at the end of Fall. I filled out paper work saying I had an AS degree in October, they asked for my official transcripts to prove what I wrote down. Since the college doesn't transcribe into the official records until the end of the semester, I technically had no degree. Even though I did all the classes and paper work.
Point is if you want those three letters ,BSN, your gonna have to play by the universities rules. If you they the units are equal, then transfer them and finish out your BSN. Request the degree and bam! You now own those 3 letters at the end and no one can take it from you....So long as the degree has been transcribed in the official records, because is they dont then you dont have a degree.
From what I've seen, aside from requiring the Lower Division GE and a couple UDGE classes, one of the BSN programs differ from an ADN program by just 6 three and four unit courses (26 units). As I already have a Bachelor's in an allied healthcare field and I have gotten into an ADN program, technically speaking, as soon as I graduate from the ADN program, I can enter the BSN program and as soon as I complete a total of 30 units "in residency" at the BSN school (26 +4), I get a BSN. So, the difference between ADN and BSN is not 2 years, it's just 6 classes. Put those classes in an ADN program and you'd have an essentially equivalently prepared person from a nursing standpoint. There still would be some difference due to Gen Ed differences between a Bachelor's Degree education and an Associate's Degree Education.
I think one thing being missed here is that there is a great difference between a pre-licensure BSN program and one designed for post ADN's, because most ADN programs are considered "career" associates programs. I did a pre-licensure BSN program at a school that had a long standing ADN program also. I know at my school, the differences are more than just six or so additional classes. The BSN program has additional English and Math requirements, an additional sequence of Science classes (such as two consecutive chemistry, biology, etc.) in addition to the A&P sequence. The BSN program also requires a seperate, stand-alone advanced Microbiology, Pathophysiology, Statistics and Pharmacology class, whereas the ADN program covers these within their Nursing sequences. The TEAS score required is also higher. The differences in the actual Nursing courses include Community Health, Health Assesment, Research, Management & Leadership, Pediatrics, Adult Health sequences, while elements of most these things are covered in modules in the ADN program. Research papers (APA) and power points were due every semester, a "windshield" community survey was conducted (20 pages) that had to be on a real need and presented to real politicians with realistic solutions. The senior project had to ID real problems wherever you did the senior rotation and had to provide the staff with real "evidence based" solutions. The ADN program has more med/surg clinical hours, but fewer service learning and specialty unit clinical opportunities. During my time I was able to do clinical time on a orhto-spine unit, a level 1 NICU, a high-risk OB floor/OR, a regular OR, oncology unit, a non-profit free health clinic and hospice. Some of my classmates did rotations in a level 1 trauma ER, Neurosurgery, ICU's (Medical, Cardiac & Surgical) and health departments. Many of these opportunities were located outside of the city where the school is. Big difference between the programs, but both produce capable nurses. The ADN focuses more on producing bedside nurses while this BSN program did that and prepared one for management, graduate study and research positions.
My ADN program has stand alone microbiology, anatomy, physiology, statistics, chemistry (general and organic/biochem), pathophysiology, and biology classes that arerequired as part of the curriculum. We also had a two quarter sequence of a stand-alone pharmacology. We spent an entire quarter on a head to toe health assessment and an entire quarter on nursing research and leadership. We then have quarters specifically devoted to OB, Peds, Med/Surg I/II, and Psych. Our last quarter clinical is an elective preceptorship 16 hours a week. I will see both routine OB and high risk OB as well as several deliveries, I will be in an ICU, an ER, multiple med/surg specialties both routine and intermediate/step-down, a LTC facility, a community clinic, and a week in hospice as part of the psych clinical quarter. During my OB clinical we split our time between regular OB, high risk OB, L&D, and NICU.
This may not be "standard" for ADN, but not all ADN programs are as sub-par as you painted them out to be. We are all RNs in the end.
I think one thing being missed here is that there is a great difference between a pre-licensure BSN program and one designed for post ADN's, because most ADN programs are considered "career" associates programs. I did a pre-licensure BSN program at a school that had a long standing ADN program also. I know at my school, the differences are more than just six or so additional classes. The BSN program has additional English and Math requirements, an additional sequence of Science classes (such as two consecutive chemistry, biology, etc.) in addition to the A&P sequence. The BSN program also requires a seperate, stand-alone advanced Microbiology, Pathophysiology, Statistics and Pharmacology class, whereas the ADN program covers these within their Nursing sequences. The TEAS score required is also higher. The differences in the actual Nursing courses include Community Health, Health Assesment, Research, Management & Leadership, Pediatrics, Adult Health sequences, while elements of most these things are covered in modules in the ADN program. Research papers (APA) and power points were due every semester, a "windshield" community survey was conducted (20 pages) that had to be on a real need and presented to real politicians with realistic solutions. The senior project had to ID real problems wherever you did the senior rotation and had to provide the staff with real "evidence based" solutions. The ADN program has more med/surg clinical hours, but fewer service learning and specialty unit clinical opportunities. During my time I was able to do clinical time on a orhto-spine unit, a level 1 NICU, a high-risk OB floor/OR, a regular OR, oncology unit, a non-profit free health clinic and hospice. Some of my classmates did rotations in a level 1 trauma ER, Neurosurgery, ICU's (Medical, Cardiac & Surgical) and health departments. Many of these opportunities were located outside of the city where the school is. Big difference between the programs, but both produce capable nurses. The ADN focuses more on producing bedside nurses while this BSN program did that and prepared one for management, graduate study and research positions.
You bring up an excellent point. I did my RN-BSN program back in the early 1980s, before my university actually had a separate track for the AD and diploma grads. We took the same classes as did the pre-licensure students and, honestly, it was stressful for students and for the instructors. RN-BSN students have very different learning needs than do pre-licensure BSN students. An RN-BSN track should build on previous learning and nursing experience.
After my class graduated the school decided to offer separate tracks for the pre-licensure and RN-BSN students.
To the OP, with a previous bachelor's and an ADN, you might be an excellent candidate for an RN-MSN bridge program. However, there are a couple of things to keep in mind. One is that many schools are discontinuing their MSN programs in advanced nursing practice (NP, CNS, CRNA, CNM) and switching to the DNP. I think that those schools that already accept ADNs or diploma grads (especially those with non-nursing bachelor's degrees) will probably continue to accept them into dnp programs but this could be a potential problem. (MSN programs for nursing management, nursing education, and other non-advanced practice specialties will continue and not be affected by the move to DNP.)
The other thing to consider is that some bridge programs don't grant the lower degree when the student completes those requirements. Some RN-MSN programs grant a BSN when the student finishes the requirements for the BSN. Some don't. If you have to drop out of the RN-MSN program before finishing the MSN portion and your school does not grant the BSN for that work, you're sort of stuck in limbo---educated at a BSN level but not able to take a job that requires a BSN. It might seem a tad redundant and illogical but if you'll only have to take a few courses after your ADN to get your BSN, you might want to go that route.
Maybe I'm overly cautious but I had second thoughts when I applied to a BSN-PhD program. I'm glad I did the more traditional MSN route.
Good luck in your educational journey and make sure to wear your seat belt. It's a bumpy ride! :)
The other thing to consider is that some bridge programs don't grant the lower degree when the student completes those requirements. Some RN-MSN programs grant a BSN when the student finishes the requirements for the BSN. Some don't. If you have to drop out of the RN-MSN program before finishing the MSN portion and your school does not grant the BSN for that work, you're sort of stuck in limbo---educated at a BSN level but not able to take a job that requires a BSN. It might seem a tad redundant and illogical but if you'll only have to take a few courses after your ADN to get your BSN, you might want to go that route.
I completely agree. A local school does a 3 year MSN for those with a non-nursing bachelors degree who are not nurses of any kind, but they don't grant you a BSN. If you opt to do NNP or ACNP which requires work experience and you have to relocate to another area during those times, you don't have a BSN and will still have to do a RN-BSN program as you are essentially a diploma prepared RN since you take all the BSN coursework but they don't give you the degree. I opted to do ADN over an accelerated 13 month BSN program because I simply could not afford to quit my job and dedicate 100% of my time to school.
My ADN program has stand alone microbiology, anatomy, physiology, statistics, chemistry (general and organic/biochem), pathophysiology, and biology classes that arerequired as part of the curriculum. We also had a two quarter sequence of a stand-alone pharmacology. We spent an entire quarter on a head to toe health assessment and an entire quarter on nursing research and leadership. We then have quarters specifically devoted to OB, Peds, Med/Surg I/II, and Psych. Our last quarter clinical is an elective preceptorship 16 hours a week. I will see both routine OB and high risk OB as well as several deliveries, I will be in an ICU, an ER, multiple med/surg specialties both routine and intermediate/step-down, a LTC facility, a community clinic, and a week in hospice as part of the psych clinical quarter. During my OB clinical we split our time between regular OB, high risk OB, L&D, and NICU.
This may not be "standard" for ADN, but not all ADN programs are as sub-par as you painted them out to be. We are all RNs in the end.
Nobody said anything about "sub-par". Parapraxis maybe?
Yes, we are all RN's in the end. If one never intends to pursue management, research or advanced practice, then, yes, an ADN will do the job.
Nobody said anything about "sub-par". Parapraxis maybe?
Yes, we are all RN's in the end. If one never intends to pursue management, research or advanced practice, then, yes, an ADN will do the job.
ADN will do the job for advanced practice. The school I am looking to go to for my MSN is top 20 ranked and does not require a BSN.... BSN or ADN + non nursing bachelors.
There is also a major hospital in Southern California that prefers to hire ADN RNs over BSN RNs.
foreverLaur
1,319 Posts
I think what the question is... Since a lot of hospitals prefer BSN over ADN for a bedside nurse (which has nothing to do with magnet status), what BSN courses will make a nurse a better bedside nurse that will not be obtained in an ADN program? IMO, if both are RNs, they should be equally as good at being a bedside nurse (assuming same experience). I think we all realize the benefits of a BSN for moving beyond the bedside (e.g. management).
Also, for the graduate school I am looking at, to get into the MSN program, you have to either have a BSN or a non-nursing bachelors + ADN. They view them as being 100% identical in terms of being admitted to a MSN program (to become a NP or CNS).