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Whose resposibility is it to ask a patient..

joeyrush joeyrush (Member)

if they would object to an observer or student present in the room during a physical? A doctor dropped the drawers(and underwear) of an UNWILLING man when he didn't comply to the Dr.'s "request" in front of a female student.The guy who was being treated for impotence and cronic pain for years by this doctor was very embarrassed and said he would never have permitted an observer in the room if asked.He told me with tears in his eyes about being unable to make love to his wife and the trouble it was bringing, that he hides in the garage in the cold to cry.A terrible story, creating fights when his wife suggested they get intimate etc.

I care for this man,I've known him for years. He's funny and sweet and has even sent us flowers!I agree with everything he say's about exposing his "worthless member" against his will.He said (and the doctor admits this) that the doctor said "oh no,the embarrassment is yet to come" as he yanked his pants and underwear down...If front of his wife too! he and his wife are inseparable and she says ( I spoke to her about this ) he wants to be her hero and be everything to her but the impotence is destroying him,he crys in the bathroom, in the garage and she's powerless( I'm crying now).

They called me and asked if the doctor could call them but the doctor refused.Finally after six week and many more calls he had to make an appointment to talk to this doctor about this! He showed up with his wife again (another sweetheart) and the silly doctor blamed it on the staff! he lied and said he just found out and also that it's the staff's responsibility to inform him that the extra person in the room is there to stay for the whole procedure and if they don't want observers a staff member is responsible for putting a note on the door.He also said the the unwilling removal of clothing in front of student (and observers? Hmmm) is common and in twenty years no one has complained.He said quote "how else are they going to learn? LEARN WHAT?

how to humiliate your patients?

The patient,his wife and two children will never come here again and that makes me sad.A wonderful couple with wonderful kids.

Has anyone ever been told it's their resposibilty? no one here has ever been told that and I can't imagine what this doctor is thinking blaming us. What should I do?

Thank you so much!

Joey

Who was the student following? The physician or the nurse? I think whoever brought her into the room should have introduced her, explained she was there to observe and would it be okay with the patient if she remained in the room. Although, I believe in one hospital I had clinicals at in nursing school many years ago, something in the admitting paperwork mentioned they were in a teaching facility and could have students observing and participating in the patient's care.

The physician not the nurse.But what's with the removal of clothing without consent?More than without consent,refusal.And what with the embarrassmet is yet to come!

I may not be understanding the OP and please forgive me. The patient went to get treatment right? Why are you very attached to the patient? Do you know him outside of work?

It sounds like a teaching hospital. Any time a patient is admitted to a teaching hospital, they have the right to refuse student observation, if they have private insurance. Many of the hospitals have floors just for people who refuse to have students working on them.

Otherwise, you're fair game if you're in a teaching hospital. After all, students have to learn somewhow. BUT the doctor should have introduced the student when they came in the room then at least explained what was going to happen before he did it. At that point the patient could have refused and tossed them out. It's a matter of simple courtesy, something this doc doesn't seem to understand.

I think a letter to the administrator of the hospital and the head of the department of medicine is in order. The doctor was rude and should know better.

Who said I was "very attached" to the patient jess? I've known him and his wife for eight years that's all. He confides in us he trusts us, we assure him that we are trustworthy, is that being" very" attached? In that case I guess I'm" very" attached to him and all of our patients. Hope you are too someday because I'm very proud of my relationship with our patients, they come to me for help.

Thank you so much cyber kat! The doctor blamed us! This is not the teaching school by the way. The patient called for six weeks and the doctor blamed us again, I think that's a very big issue. The doctor also said he removes the clothing of" hesitant" patients be they male or female and I assume self-conscious teenage girls and women who've undergone a mastectomy also... then blames the staff.... I wonder what that young pretty future doctor learned that day?

I forgot the "N" sorry!

Who said I was "very attached" to the patient jess? I've known him and his wife for eight years that's all. He confides in us he trusts us, we assure him that we are trustworthy, is that being" very" attached? In that case I guess I'm" very" attached to him and all of our patients. Hope you are too someday because I'm very proud of my relationship with our patients, they come to me for help.

Thank you so much cyber kat! The doctor blamed us! This is not the teaching school by the way. The patient called for six weeks and the doctor blamed us again, I think that's a very big issue. The doctor also said he removes the clothing of" hesitant" patients be they male or female and I assume self-conscious teenage girls and women who've undergone a mastectomy also... then blames the staff.... I wonder what that young pretty future doctor learned that day?

Apparently, this physician is a member of the old school--'the physician is always right.' And apparently none of his patients have ever filed a complaint with his local BOM or the facilities he has privileges in. I would advise any patient complaining of his actions of the necessary steps to take in reporting him. And if your state has a Department of Professional Regulation, they should file a complaint with them. He will not stop until such action is taken.

Grannynurse:balloons:

Tweety, BSN, RN

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.

The MD should clarify prior to doing the exam that it's ok for the student to be present. Perhaps a screening process in advance would save some embarrassment.

Staff and MD's should work together on this matter.

Ultimately pulling down the man's pants and underwear was disrespectful and borderline assault. The poor man is suffering and now is suffering worse because of this MD's callous and rude behavior.

This sounds like the "push 'em off the pier" method of swimming lessons. Some folks are going to go under. That sounds like this patient, who now has a new form of humiliation to add to the pile.

But even the people who manage to start paddling suffer a loss of trust.

This doc might know medicine, but he has a lot to learn about healing.

I second cyberkat's suggestions about sending letters to the hospital administrator and the head of the medical dept. And grannynurse's idea of contacting the local medical board is good, too. It would be most effective if the patient himself were to send such letters. This doc needs some serious re-training.

Who said I was "very attached" to the patient jess? I've known him and his wife for eight years that's all. He confides in us he trusts us, we assure him that we are trustworthy, is that being" very" attached? In that case I guess I'm" very" attached to him and all of our patients. Hope you are too someday because I'm very proud of my relationship with our patients, they come to me for help.

Thank you so much cyber kat! The doctor blamed us! This is not the teaching school by the way. The patient called for six weeks and the doctor blamed us again, I think that's a very big issue. The doctor also said he removes the clothing of" hesitant" patients be they male or female and I assume self-conscious teenage girls and women who've undergone a mastectomy also... then blames the staff.... I wonder what that young pretty future doctor learned that day?

Wow, I sense you do take things to the heart. It was just a question not to make such a huge deal out of it. I kindly said to pardon me as well if I was not understanding, but apparently you overlooked that. The reason I asked is because you did not mention you knew him for that long etc, I will also apologize one more time for upsetting you. :clown:

I am glad you are proud and you should be. :nurse: I do understand. I do think I will be a compassionate nurse, and as a word of advice it is very hard to express oneself in writing don't take things to literal. Have a wonderful day and I will go stick my nose in another thread.

Jess

The doctor was out of line in this situation. The patient does have the right to privacy. The doctor should have introduced the student and explain the purpose of her presence, and ASKED the patient if it was OK. Since he also blames the nurses for things, he must be a real treat to work with. I agree with others who have suggested writting to the hospital administrators or the BOM.

I hope these folks find a kind, compassionate doctor.

That poor man. I'm not sure what to say other than that doctor is a total jerk.

prmenrs, RN

Specializes in NICU, Infection Control.

I would've written him up! We had something called a "Quality Variance Report" [basically an Incident Report], the concept was that when anything happened in the hospital that "varied from quality", we could report it. I don't care who this dude is, there is someone in the chain of command over him--maybe even the Dean of the Medical School or of the University @ which the SOM resides. And one of those individuals will care about the sad legacy this "doc" is leaving behind for patients and the students he claims to be teaching. Bad karma!

I would also consider that assault and battery. Those folks have such a law suit--even tho I doubt it would happen because it would embarrass him even more.

Meanwhile, I also believe they both need some counseling. Antidepressants might help, too. He sounds (from your description) very depressed and focusing on this one aspect of what seems to be a beautiful relationship. If he could find the joy in what's good about his life..... Sex is great, but many people live happy, fulfilling lives w/o it--whether due to dysfunction or opportunity.

I will certainly remember this sweet couple in my prayers.

I never heard that the right to privacy only exists for people with private insurance!

I am a frequent patient at a teaching hospital, and even though I am a Medicaid patient (ESRD eligibility), I have always been asked if it's ok for students to observe.

If I was treated like that poor old man was, I'd be MORTIFIED!! :eek:

I am very uncomfortable with dressing/undressing in front of other people and always have been. Maybe this makes me an overly modest person...so be it. But if a doctor exposed ME to a male student, I'd be making a LOT of noise about it.

Thank you guys you're great! I only wish I could direct him to this site so he can see all your wonderful replies! I can understand that being a man he feels quite self-conscious now which he expressed to me in tears. Poor men , big boys don't cry. Sad thing that he spoke to my boss at first, she told him that it was his responsibility to say that he didn't want her there. She's a real brown nose b*tch and has zero bedside manner. As a matter of fact I have his phone number and he would love to hear from me he says so I am going to direct him to this site! He'll be very happy... tears... maybe Jess is right...nah, I'll never distance myself, that's why I entered this profession.

Wow, I sense you do take things to the heart. It was just a question not to make such a huge deal out of it. I kindly said to pardon me as well if I was not understanding, but apparently you overlooked that. The reason I asked is because you did not mention you knew him for that long etc, I will also apologize one more time for upsetting you. :clown:

I am glad you are proud and you should be. :nurse: I do understand. I do think I will be a compassionate nurse, and as a word of advice it is very hard to express oneself in writing don't take things to literal. Have a wonderful day and I will go stick my nose in another thread.

Jess

Sorry Jess I didn't see your reply before I posted my previous reply. it just sounded like you were about to say "he went there for treatment what did he expect to happen?(Which is exactly what the doctor told him) I don't want to come here and make trouble on the first day.

The last time I spoke to him he was in search of another doctor of course and get this, a female doctor!He said it wasn't a matter of vanity, it was a matter of consent.

And as he put it, the difference between making love and rape. The difference between being robbed and making a donation. When he told me he was going to see a female doctor I just said " good for you!" And like I said, I am going to stick my neck out and contact him and I'm going to tell him about you guys and you are really going to make his day! Thank you so much!

I zoomed through this thread and didn't read all the nooks and crannies, but one thing I can add is that I used to work in admitting in the hospital. One of the things we read out loud to the patient, (regardless of ins.) that they signed, was "You have the right to refuse treatment (etc.), You are responsible for anything the insurance doesn't cover (etc.) We are a teaching hospital. You may encounter students during your stay here." And they signed on the line, long form, lots to it and most people didn't want to bother reading it. We read this to any patient that had any services done in the hospital, outpatient, inpatient, ER, etc. If we couldn't read this to them it was read to their power of atty temporarily, until they themselves were able to hear it (if they recovered to point they could.) (And we tried to be very diligent about finding a PoA, didn't just let spouses sign w/o comfirming they were the pts PoA)

On the other hand, that Dr. sure could have done things differently to spare the fella the whole episode, how crass and unfeeling of him, and I hope something can be done about that.

But in terms of the STUDENT being present... I'm worried that if the gentleman in question tries to complain but has a similiar form in his file, depending on the wording of it, "they" might be able to say he signed a blanket statement allowing for students. :o Something to check into.

Cats

If I was treated like that poor old man was, I'd be MORTIFIED!! :eek:

I am very uncomfortable with dressing/undressing in front of other people and always have been. Maybe this makes me an overly modest person...so be it. But if a doctor exposed ME to a male student, I'd be making a LOT of noise about it.

Oh boulergirl he's only 48! :-):specs: he'll get it together I know it. It's so difficult for men, if this was a woman there would be no question what so ever so I guess it's up to us to keep track of these men doctors! One thing that's pretty nifty, this guy owns and manages three web sites and he said he's going to feature this doctor no matter how embarrassing it is to him, to warn others. He said his children know of the sites, his children's friends and their parents so it's going to be quite embarrassing but he says he's going to tell his story online!

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