When ill equipped students affect your grade...

WondeR.N. · May 7, 2010

Oh! English is his second language! Well...there you go. That would explain a LOT. I apologize, because I don't know where you're located, but here in NY, you hear a new language every time you turn the corner. Probably 25% of my nursing class had English as their second language, and just about everybody was 100% fluent. I do recall one very smart, incredibly sweet man who had already had one successful career (teacher in the Philippines) and--in his 60s--decided he wanted to go into nursing. While his English was good, he was not fluent, and so much of his energy was focused on trying to understand and communicate with medical terminology in English that he just couldn't keep his head above water and failed in our 2nd or 3rd semester. He was always nervous and anxious, became overwhelmed in the clinical environment and just couldn't pass the tests with a high enough grade to stay in the program. Nursing school is really tough, and without complete fluency in English, it's damn near impossible. It's sad, but there's zilch you can do to help your classmate with that.

wahwahgerman · May 7, 2010

Oh! English is his second language! Well...there you go. That would explain a LOT. I apologize, because I don't know where you're located, but here in NY, you hear a new language every time you turn the corner. Probably 25% of my nursing class had English as their second language, and just about everybody was 100% fluent. I do recall one very smart, incredibly sweet man who had already had one successful career (teacher in the Philippines) and--in his 60s--decided he wanted to go into nursing. While his English was good, he was not fluent, and so much of his energy was focused on trying to understand and communicate with medical terminology in English that he just couldn't keep his head above water and failed in our 2nd or 3rd semester. He was always nervous and anxious, became overwhelmed in the clinical environment and just couldn't pass the tests with a high enough grade to stay in the program. Nursing school is really tough, and without complete fluency in English, it's damn near impossible. It's sad, but there's zilch you can do to help your classmate with that.

I did not mention the second language portion of this issue because I didn't want that to become the main focus of the postings. We all had to take the same prereq courses and obtain a high grade in order to be accepted into the program. I'm sure it's a difficult journey, but nursing school requires proficiency in English if you are planning to work in the states. On the same note, there are many people in our program who are from other countries who are awesome students, so I don't want people to take this as I am bashing the ESL students. I agree, nursing school is tough for people when it is their primary language!

AlynnSN · May 7, 2010

Again...I'm a student people, I AM STILL LEARNING MYSELF. I have helped this student for hours and hours and so has EVERYONE else. Are you kidding me with this post? Why would it be my responsibility to be with this NS every minute of lab and clinicals? Do you forget that I am at school to learn and at clinicals to take care of my assignments too? Oh, and there are 8 other students besides him that I would gladly help when they need assistance! Do you really think that one person deserves full attention and devotion of time from the whole group? Give me a break...I can only be at so many places at one time. And to be expected by an instructor to assure another student's success is pure nonsense.

Really?! Never was it mentioned to spend all day/every minute with the student. Blown way out of proportion here! It's completely obvious that you only posted the OP to get people to agree with everything that you are saying. You keep adding more and more to your story about the incompetent person to make you "right" in the end. What are you getting out of all the feedback so far?

In the end, no matter what, patient is number one. It's not about the incompetent SN, it's about the patient. If you have to get the instructor or SN or nurse then so be it, but patient is number one. Period. End of story.

morte, LPN, LVN · May 7, 2010

Really?! Never was it mentioned to spend all day/every minute with the student. Blown way out of proportion here! It's completely obvious that you only posted the OP to get people to agree with everything that you are saying. You keep adding more and more to your story about the incompetent person to make you "right" in the end. What are you getting out of all the feedback so far?
In the end, no matter what, patient is number one. It's not about the incompetent SN, it's about the patient. If you have to get the instructor or SN or nurse then so be it, but patient is number one. Period. End of story.

your thoughts in general are not totally coherent to me, but especially the sentence in bold....are you missing the point that the OP is loosing points d/t an apparently incompetent fellow student whom the CI is allowing to pass without doing the nec work? How is this putting the patient first?

morte, LPN, LVN · May 7, 2010

.....and like i said...in my opinion your instructor did exactly what she should have done. i never said you should fail the nursing program. i am not blaming anyone. i think what is being typed is not coming across the way i wished it would. so hopefully the following will not either.
if the student comes to clinical unprepared, then eventually she will fail but what is the harm in helping them out in the mean time? i never said you know everything either. i apologize if that is how it sounded. i was pointing out the fact that you will eventually come across a situation where you will need help...and i hope you do not find yourself in a situation where your fellow nurse feels that you are unprepared or "incompetent". your future fellow nurses might not think that it is their responsibility to educate you either as there will mostly be an educator but just like the educator your instructor is only one person. they cannot be everywhere at one time. so sometimes, we have to rely on each other to help out.
be thankful that your instructor felt you knew the material well enough to teach the other student. this is not a missed opportunity as you are learning how to teach someone how to learn a concept. you have to do this in nursing, it's called pt education. i understand you feel it is not your responsibility and you are concerned that this individual will put others at harm but eventually this person will be weeded out no matter if it is by clinical, tests, nclex, or future employers... if they are truly incompetent. i know this is not very reassuring but honestly i do not recall much of anything in nursing school that did not require a licensed staff member to observe but maybe my school was a lot different. finally, pleeeeeeeeeeease in the future take this situation as a complement. speak out about it if you cannot get what you need to do for your own patients to care for them adequately. i can honestly say i have not read every post in this thread, and maybe that was happening but i doubt your instructor would have asked you if this was the case. anyway, you obviously are excelling right now and i hope that continues. i hope the situation did not seriously change your grade but if it did, i am sure understand that grades aren't everything...even if you want to go to grad school one day. what is meant to be will be. good luck!

it blows my mind that you think it is ok to penalize 9 students for the 10ths failures.....how can you justify this action?

wahwahgerman · May 7, 2010

your thoughts in general are not totally coherent to me, but especially the sentence in bold....are you missing the point that the OP is loosing points d/t an apparently incompetent fellow student whom the CI is allowing to pass without doing the nec work? How is this putting the patient first?

Okay? Because in the end the patient will suffer if this person becomes a nurse who has not learned adequate skills! Thank you for pointing out the obvious. Let's be clear. The CI is doing no favors for the student nurse or his future patients.

morte, LPN, LVN · May 7, 2010

Many of us have been where you are and have learned that even if we are the STAR pupil, even if we have it going on for us, if one of us is lost we all lose. I believe you gave what you thought was the best you had to offer, my concern is that after all of the giving you are still focused on you. Nursing is not about the individual, it is about the Group. Every day in the real world, we encounter peers and patiemts and families that don't "get it", the expectation is that we will forget ourself and focus on the weakest link. I can't say this enough, forget about you and focus on the greater good, what you as an individual person a contributor can make a difference. My last statement may be viewed as REALLY judgemental but it is not my intent. If you hang on to this issue, you wil fail to be the bes, most sensitive and caring nurse you are open to be. If we as nurses can't carry when it is evident that carrying is the order of the day for a colleague then we may need to reevaluate our calling.
Please, please, those of you who disagree DON'T email me. Thanks Nanacarol

1) sounds like summer camp

2)sounds like mind control

3)not sound psychologically

4)again, not sound psych

5)hardly a calling for most of us

6) as Truman said, if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen

wahwahgerman · May 7, 2010

Really?! Never was it mentioned to spend all day/every minute with the student. Blown way out of proportion here! It's completely obvious that you only posted the OP to get people to agree with everything that you are saying. You keep adding more and more to your story about the incompetent person to make you "right" in the end. What are you getting out of all the feedback so far?
In the end, no matter what, patient is number one. It's not about the incompetent SN, it's about the patient. If you have to get the instructor or SN or nurse then so be it, but patient is number one. Period. End of story.

Um, not blown out of proportion my friend, I'm not lying about one single solitary part of my experience that I have shared. So, let me get this straight. A nurse should be tossed out into this world, ill-prepared, and other nurses should be on constant watch of their co-workers that are inept? Really? I'm not trying to be simply "right" here, I'm telling you that this student I refer to is not equipped to care for a patient on his own...do you get that? Do you honestly expect that he be passed through nursing school and become a nurse that needs constant baby-sitting by co-workers? That's wrong in so many ways and is impossible in the working world. Honestly, think about your mother being taken care of someone who is incompetent...would that be unsettling to you? If you stick with the motto, "the patient is number one" then why would you encourage the hypocricy of carrying an incompetent student into the real world of nursing? There is a clear disconnect here.

dudette10, MSN, RN · May 7, 2010

By more recent posts, it's becoming clear to me that many of the people who are disagreeing with you in words actually agree with you in priniciple. And, when responses get to that level of nonsensical, I just :lol2: :lol2:.

Just one thing I want to add, very gently. I really do wish you had said from the get-go that you thought this student's problems were due to an ESL issue. I would not have changed my opinion about your grade getting docked nor my opinion that you aren't responsible for carrying the student.

However, often what happens when a fluent English speaker is trying to assist another who is not so fluent, a bit of impatience on the part of the helper sets in, and it becomes apparent to the ESL student. Which makes them more nervous because the ESL student KNOWS it's a shortcoming. Which creates heightened performance anxiety. Which leads to mistakes.

The one thing I would have changed in my responses to you was to cover your impatience as much as possible if you are in a clinical rotation with him again. You may see a dramatic change and a higher level of performance. Of course, I'm assuming impatience on your part, but I've seen it happen a LOT in my life when it comes to fluent and nonfluent interactions between people.

Yes, you were correct earlier when you thought it would become a focus of the conversation. For me, it would have been part of the focus of the conversation because it's a very real phenomenon that needs to be addressed.

Good luck to you, wahwah.

beingthankful · May 7, 2010

I wanted to say thank you. This thread has given me soooo much perspective on the thought processes of nursing students and nurses alike. I'll start by clearing away all the "weak" points that I will likely be attacked on: I'm not a nursing student. I have not taken Microbiology, A&P or Chemistry. They weren't required for my degree.

That being said, I do know the difference between an inhaler and a nasal spray, BP & blood glucose, the medical terminology for some anatomical parts, & that administering a BP controlling medication to a lower than normal BP will bottom the patient out. i/e - bad, very very bad. I'm not putting this out there to prove what I know, but to evidence that I don't live under a rock & didn't just wake up in the morning with a "Ferb, I know what we're going to do today! Become a nurse! Weeee" type attitude.

That being said, I didn't comprehend any of this being the issue. I felt as if the OP was clear in stating that the frustration was with her ENTIRE GROUP (inferred except the NS in question) was docked 5% of their grade points due to the poor performance of the 1 group member in question. :eek:

Now amongst the smattering of actual constructive advice the OP was given, there is a fair amount of Koom-By-Ah but "you suck & are selfish, 1 loss equals everyone losing, carry your collegues on your back if they cannot handle the load" type messages. Why this confuses me so is because the very nature of these messages stands in direct opposition to the message itself.

If this is truly how it is, than why such an attacking feel towards the OP? Why not, "I understand that it sucks. But unfortunately that's just sometimes how the chips will fall from now on in this profession." Or why although there is this "preach-y" feeling about the patient's needs & care coming first; these posters (at least to me) seem either unwilling or unable to place themselves in the shoes of the OP and provide a care plan that will treat their concerns as a "whole" individual rather than a nuisance symptom utilizing the concepts of "educating the patient" as they themselves suggest.

If some of you came to me as a patient with that attitude, I'd ask for a new nurse. Nothing personal. It just sounds to me like the OP is a patient with an ache & some of you are asking follow up questions to get to the bottom of it & the rest are just administering tylenol with a good "suck it up", followed by a discharge.

cicatrixx15 · May 7, 2010

WahWah, I think people are just disagreeing with you to disagree, or they half read your original post and then decided to post. I've been following this post since it started, and it's ridiculous people keep making you out to be some horrible selfish person. You were posting about YOUR grade. It's totally not fair, and these people splashing the "there's no I in team" bullcrap are blowing my mind.

First of all, you pointed out it wasn't just you that feels this way.

Second of all.......you know what? There shouldn't even be a second of all, because this is too ridiculous to debate about, because you ARE TOTALLY justified in your feelings.

People are beating this post with a dead horse!!!!

wahwahgerman · May 7, 2010

By more recent posts, it's becoming clear to me that many of the people who are disagreeing with you in words actually agree with you in priniciple. And, when responses get to that level of nonsensical, I just :lol2:.
Just one thing I want to add, very gently. I really do wish you had said from the get-go that you thought this student's problems were due to an ESL issue. I would not have changed my opinion about your grade getting docked nor my opinion that you aren't responsible for carrying the student.
However, often what happens when a fluent English speaker is trying to assist another who is not so fluent, a bit of impatience on the part of the helper sets in, and it becomes apparent to the ESL student. Which makes them more nervous because the ESL student KNOWS it's a shortcoming. Which creates heightened performance anxiety. Which leads to mistakes.
The one thing I would have changed in my responses to you was to cover your impatience as much as possible if you are in a clinical rotation with him again. You may see a dramatic change and a higher level of performance. Of course, I'm assuming impatience on your part, but I've seen it happen a LOT in my life when it comes to fluent and nonfluent interactions between people.
Yes, you were correct earlier when you thought it would become a focus of the conversation. For me, it would have been part of the focus of the conversation because it's a very real phenomenon that needs to be addressed.
Good luck to you, wahwah.

Thank you! I was not trying to mislead any readers; again, I did not want ESL students to be the primary focus. I look at my peers/fellow students as my equals and I don't even like to factor ESL into the equation. I also agree that the language barrier issue does need to be addressed. However, it is very difficult for people to discuss the complexities without losing focus of the original post problem (i.e. grades being affected by other students)! Regardless of your background, I still feel that an individual is personally responsible for their full learning capability.