When ill equipped students affect your grade...

AlynnSN · May 7, 2010

Yes, let me single-handedly end favoritism. Behold all my amazing powers to stop all wrong-doings in the world and specifically in nursing school.

Okay well I'm done here. I find it a bit rediculous how dramatic you are with everything that is said.

--No you shouldn't have got docked 5% of your grade but in the meantime, stop complaining about it and actually do something about it, but in the meantime, keep the patients safe the best that you can.

-- I'm glad you 2 find that funny, I guess I would be able to tell my upper administration about it and know something would be done. I don't find patient safety being compromised funny at all.

--Hope everything works out for you regardless (and the patients!)

beingthankful · May 7, 2010

Okay well I'm done here. I find it a bit rediculous how dramatic you are with everything that is said.
--No you shouldn't have got docked 5% of your grade but in the meantime, stop complaining about it and actually do something about it, but in the meantime, keep the patients safe the best that you can.
-- I'm glad you 2 find that funny, I guess I would be able to tell my upper administration about it and know something would be done. I don't find patient safety being compromised funny at all.
--Hope everything works out for you regardless (and the patients!)

Wooo, my goodness, what's wrong with a little levity from time to time. WoW! And yes, :yeah: you clearly do need to take a break. I mean really, you didn't find the BEHOLD ALL even a tad bit humorous? I mean it's a classic comic hero reference and - you know what? It was my SuperStudentNurse tagline wasn't it? Too much? :banghead:

I KNEW I should've gone for a wonderwoman reference!

wahwahgerman · May 7, 2010

Wooo, my goodness, what's wrong with a little levity from time to time. WoW! And yes, you clearly do need to take a break. I mean really, you didn't find the BEHOLD ALL even a tad bit humorous? I mean it's a classic comic hero reference and - you know what? It was my SuperStudentNurse tagline wasn't it? Too much?
I KNEW I should've gone for a wonderwoman reference!

That's right dang-it, don't find humor in the ridiculousness, because someone will feel the need to step in and be the higher moral standard. There is humor in every situation; if you lose your humor life will become miserable.

EDRNBSN · May 7, 2010

I am a clinical instructor and it is I who has the responsibility to manage a "student who may not be getting it". I believe it is unfair to push off the learning and teaching needs of a student who is stuggling to other students who are able to get it. If I were this students clinical instructor I would immediately send this student back to the school learning lab for one on one until either he or she gets it. It would be very difficult for any instructor who has many clinical students to devote the time and attention needed for a student who requires one on one instruction. It is not fair to the students who do get it because they also need the attention of their clinical instructor. I believe it is a clinical instructor's responsibility to manage this student, not the responsibility of the other students in the clinical lab. It has been my experience that book smart students often have difficulty transferring their learning to the actual bedside practice of nursing. And vice versa, students who struggle in theory most often have excellent clinical skills. Pass/Fail clinicals hold each student accountable individually for their learning which I believe is a much better system. It is unfortunate that this clinical instructor has allowed her personal feelings about a student to supercede the safety and welfare of the patient, and that should never happen! While all instructors have their favorite students they should never let that be known, and each student should be treated equally by their instructor. I wonder if this instructor would be comfortable allowing this student to provide nursing care to one of her family members? I suspect not, and she is certainly not doing this student any favors by not intervening early on in the game.

allnurses Guide · May 7, 2010

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QUOTE=wahwahgerman;4286357]I totally understand your point, and also the points Dolcevita made. You're also right that calling someone unsafe is a serious accusation and I am rethinking my approach. I'll give you a few examples of why I feel there is a safety issue....The NS in question not knowing the difference between an inhaler and a nasal spray (even though he was corrected by myself and several other students at least 10 times), confusing what blood pressure and blood glucose levels are (yeah, really) and giving the wrong meds in simulation because of this BP/BG confusion, also in simulation setting - seeing a blood pressure of 93/78 and still administering Cozaar (telling the patient it is for blood glucose control and pain)....which would result in the patient's blood pressure tanking, sim lab scenario again - the patient tells him that she cannot swallow pills and he insists that she take them anyway, not knowing names for anatomical parts (i.e. lower extremity, toe, etc), and not knowing how to measure up morphine/glucose by reading the numbers on the syringe. Man, I could go on forever. I truly feel there is a risk in this nursing student caring for patients. Seeing that the CI who favors this student has apparently covered for him throughout our clinicals, it could be that the other instructors are not aware of how bad it really is. Although he was observed messing up in front of a few CIs in simulation lab recently and maybe they noted a problem. I know it's hard to relay my entire experience in posts, but this student is not learning even with redirection and teaching from staff and students alike....however, is still passing somehow?

Is his behavior and the CI's trip-switch to intervene (if at all, sounds like the instructors are pretty much AWOL at your school) different in sim lab than it is at your clinical sites on real patients? In a sim lab the instructors may let things unfold a little longer to observe interpersonal skills. Some schools put a very high value on the "group learning" concept and average things out, but in my mind the core premise is flawed. Group grading assumes that everyone puts forth equal effort, that individuals vary in learning styles, (ie verbal, kinetic, visual) and when combined form a synergistic effect. Like many flawed educational models, it doesn't work in the real world and leads to resentments just like this.

Just in general, it drives me up a wall, but. . I like to help people who are trying and don't get it. It makes me feel good. When I was in school we had a woman in her late 40s who had been in the theater, husband also in the film industry and she was a very slow learner. She was also a hoot and a half with all her stories, and she also got up at 2am and studied for four hours every day before coming to school. I'd walk across hot coals for her. That other student, the one who always had a hangover and had so much social drama going on with the guys in our class she couldn't concentrate? Nah. I don't think so.

As a nurse in a working environment, (except in a life and death situation- where you always do what you can)- if a co-worker repeatedly relies on other people to pick up her slack, has poor work habits, frequent lates and absences that mess up other people's lives-- sorry that aint teamwork. Indeed, after a clear pattern is identified, it's enabling in my view.

. .wahwah I just have to ask. . did this guy's parents give $1,000,000.00 to the Alumni Association or something? :confused: A clinical instructor calling a student a Little Lost Dove? Dunno. . . maybe your first step should be to have the water checked in the faculty break room. :) :nurse: :)

jzkfel · May 7, 2010

Ok, this has been an interesting thread.

I am not sure from the posts that you are graded as a group, as a previous poster said. You stated in one of the first posts that "several students" were docked points for not "overcompensating" for another student. Again, that's your version, and it isn't very specific. If the other student performed poorly and you were marked down accordingly, that would be unfair. On the other hand, if the instructor or the student asked for help and you had time and refused out of general principal, that's another matter. Again, can't tell from your posts. I would be interested to hear some other sides of the story, or at least some details. I really don't believe you were told you were docked points for not "overcompensating". What was the actual reason you were given?

All I can go by is how you present yourself, and I don't think you do yourself any favors.

- You are really sarcastic. Doesn't fly in the workplace....

- You are kind of dramatic. Again, not very helpful in a professional environment.

- You don't seem to listen to other people very well. Giving kudos to everyone who agrees with you and arguing with those who don't doesn't make you look like a very reasonable person.

- You are way to focused on this other student. The issue is your performance, your conduct during clinicals and your evaluation.

CBsMommy · May 7, 2010

Ok, this has been an interesting thread.
I am not sure from the posts that you are graded as a group, as a previous poster said. You stated in one of the first posts that "several students" were docked points for not "overcompensating" for another student. Again, that's your version, and it isn't very specific. If the other student performed poorly and you were marked down accordingly, that would be unfair. On the other hand, if the instructor or the student asked for help and you had time and refused out of general principal, that's another matter. Again, can't tell from your posts. I would be interested to hear some other sides of the story, or at least some details. I really don't believe you were told you were docked points for not "overcompensating". What was the actual reason you were given?
All I can go by is how you present yourself, and I don't think you do yourself any favors.
- You are really sarcastic. Doesn't fly in the workplace....
- You are kind of dramatic. Again, not very helpful in a professional environment.
- You don't seem to listen to other people very well. Giving kudos to everyone who agrees with you and arguing with those who don't doesn't make you look like a very reasonable person.
- You are way to focused on this other student. The issue is your performance, your conduct during clinicals and your evaluation.

One, this is a board for someone to come and vent their feelings. I am also a very sarcastic person which has really only helped me in my jobs and my life. Come and see the awards that I've won hanging on my wall.

I am also really dramatic. Which actually makes me kind of funny and makes my patients really like me. While I don't fly off the handle at work and I can actually keep a tight lid on it sometimes, there's nothing wrong with being dramatic.

I think the OP is listening to the other people. Just because OP is disagreeing with you doesn't mean they are not a reasonable person. I think this person is very reasonable. If they were docking your grade for putting your job aside to do your classmate's job, you would be feeling this way too? If not, I would say that you are very unreasonable. See, opinions are like....ears. We all have them...doesn't make it right or wrong.

The OP isn't focused upon their classmate. The OP is more focused on their grade being docked as stated many, many times throughout this post.

Now, if you don't like it, you can keep arguing your point, although in your opinion, does that make you unreasonable like you stated the OP was? Just curious.

CBsMommy · May 7, 2010

Who e-mailed Nanacarol???? I want to know too!!!

WondeR.N. · May 7, 2010

I'm thinking the person who emailed her might be somebody who just read the thread and did not post any response.

CBsMommy · May 7, 2010

I'm thinking the person who emailed her might be somebody who just read the thread and did not post any response.

Ahhhhh. That's no fun. A good healthy debate is awesome! I would've love to have seen that e-mail!

morte, LPN, LVN · May 7, 2010

Ahhhhh. That's no fun. A good healthy debate is awesome! I would've love to have seen that e-mail!

hrmph, not totally undeserved......

Moogie · May 7, 2010

I am a clinical instructor and it is I who has the responsibility to manage a "student who may not be getting it". I believe it is unfair to push off the learning and teaching needs of a student who is stuggling to other students who are able to get it. If I were this students clinical instructor I would immediately send this student back to the school learning lab for one on one until either he or she gets it. It would be very difficult for any instructor who has many clinical students to devote the time and attention needed for a student who requires one on one instruction. It is not fair to the students who do get it because they also need the attention of their clinical instructor. I believe it is a clinical instructor's responsibility to manage this student, not the responsibility of the other students in the clinical lab. It has been my experience that book smart students often have difficulty transferring their learning to the actual bedside practice of nursing. And vice versa, students who struggle in theory most often have excellent clinical skills. Pass/Fail clinicals hold each student accountable individually for their learning which I believe is a much better system. It is unfortunate that this clinical instructor has allowed her personal feelings about a student to supercede the safety and welfare of the patient, and that should never happen! While all instructors have their favorite students they should never let that be known, and each student should be treated equally by their instructor. I wonder if this instructor would be comfortable allowing this student to provide nursing care to one of her family members? I suspect not, and she is certainly not doing this student any favors by not intervening early on in the game.

Can I give you quadruple kudos for this post? I agree with you completely; it is the responsibility of the clinical instructor, not of fellow classmates, to help struggling students gain competence and confidence in the clinical setting. It sounds as if the instructor may have been overwhelmed---I've had ten students in a clinical group at a time and it's impossible to be with each one of those students in different rooms or different wings at the very same time. However, that is not an excuse for this instructor trying to shift the responsibility for the "little lost dove's" clinical learning onto his classmates. (Actually, the responsibility for the "little lost dove's" learning lies with HIM. If he is having language difficulties, he should be proactive enough to seek assistance from the school's center for ESL students---and if the school doesn't have such a resource, well, it's a disservice to ESL students to admit them to the program if they don't have the resources to facilitate their learning. But that's another day, another thread...)

Yes, teamwork is vital. I would definitely have a private chitchat with a student who spent his/her time at the desk or at the computer and refused to help or disappeared when other students needed assistance, say, for ambulating a patient or doing other cares. It doesn't sound like this was the case, however, with the OP. I don't know if the OP was rude or exasperated, if the instructor was a flake, or if there was maybe a combination of factors (though I personally think it was the flake factor more than anything...)

The bottom line is: it appears that the OP was penalized unfairly for something that was not his/her responsibility in the first place. The instructor sounds capricious and is basing her grading on personal feelings, not on objective assessment of student abilities. As others have said, she is NOT doing that student any favors by passing him if he is having language difficulties or is incompetent in the clinical setting. Unfortunately, the OP received the consequence of a lower clinical grade. Even if the OP had a "bad" attitude about this student and continually made disparaging or sarcastic remarks, it was wrong of the instructor to deduct 5% from the OP's clinical grade. If the OP did have a "bad attitude" he/she should have been confronted about it much earlier in the semester so he/she could have worked on having a more generous and helpful attitude.

I can't blame wahwahgerman for wanting to vent. On the other hand, WWG, you have learned a very important (albeit unfortunate) lesson about health care politics. Instructors, managers, people in power have their "pets" and many of them let their personal feelings get in the way of effectively supervising students or staff. Vent, stew, let yourself get completely peeved over this---and then learn from it. In the real world, you will, unfortunately, have lazy or incompetent co-workers who happen to be the darlings of the nurse manager and get by with murder. (That isn't unique to nursing, either...) The sooner you can learn to deal with that inevitable frustration, the sooner you can move on and learn to work through or transcend the political BS. I am sorry that your grade suffered and if it makes a difference in your GPA, you may wish to talk with the instructor first about your frustration and then discuss it with your adviser if you don't get a satisfactory resolution or answer from your instructor.

And in the future, if you run into this sort of problem when you are concerned about an instructor's fairness or another student's safety in the clinical setting---document, document, document. Keep a journal or a diary and write down what happened (making sure not to mention identifying data about any patients, of course).

I am sorry this happened to you.