What's up with TN ????

elkpark · May 7, 2008

I don't have any answer to the question, "what's up with TN?", but I will add that I'm now working prn in an inpatient psych position in TN, after working psych for decades in a few different states, and I must say that what seems to be the standard level of care in TN (in "my" facility, at least) seems quite low compared to what I'm used to. Many of the standard practices in the larger mental health system (people getting involuntarily committed to psych units, etc.) seem very unprofessional compared to what I'm used to. I don't mean to say anything negative about any individual Tennessean :), but the way a lot of things are done in the state in healthcare (in mental health, at least) seems pretty backward in general (again, compared to the experiences I've had in other states). Of course, I'm sure there are other states where things are even worse ...

dee78 · May 7, 2008

Let me play devil's advocate a bit.

You don't know the history at that home. I worked for a police dept and yes it is a civil matter until a crime occurs. If she felt threatened, she should have gone to the house when he wouldn't be there. You knew that he was drinking and making threats before you even went over there, what did you expect?

As far as the officers' reaction, they were responding to the scene of a domestic disturbance. They had to make sure no one had any weapons, you were part of the disturbance so therefore you were treated like a suspect. Do you know their history? You know of her allegations of a abuse but do you know what else has gone on? I don't know any more than you do but I worked at the police dept in Chattanooga and I know that if a residence has a history the dispatcher will let the officers know. For instance, my ex's residence had a warning that he was violent and had multiple firearms. They always sent two deputies to his home. Did he know this? Probably not.

All I'm saying is that you can't judge an entire state or even town on one incident. You don't know the whole story, you know the woman's side of the story. Now I have no doubt that he probably did do those things because well those were the very same reasons that I left my ex, minus the drinking. I also made the mistake of going back to the house, only I didn't take a posse with me. He was waiting in the dark for me. I packed the car but as I was leaving, he stood in the way and wouldn't let me leave. I thought I was going to have to run over him. His uncle (thankfully) was at home and came out and talked him into just letting me leave. The next time I went back was a month later when I knew he was not there. I took a truck and two guys with me. I did call the sheriff a year later when I had a court order to take some pictures of his home but was too scared to go to the house. BUT this was after my ex shot a full round of bullets into my car, hence the alert on his address.

Anyway, I guess I took offense to your post. Do "Good Ole Boys" clubs still exist? I'm sure that they do but I really don't see that as the case here. I see it as a wife leaving her husband, the husband going on a drinking binge and making threats, and the wife not heeding the threats and aggravating the situation by showing up at the house with friends. The officers responded to this scene, having limited information. Why should they automatically believe this woman...just because she's a woman? No, that's not how it works. I don't think they were comforting him. They were probably patting him on the back, leading him back to the house, telling him to sober up, and get his life straight.

There are alot of situations that we see with our own pair of glasses. Sometimes it hard to take them off and put on another person's to try to see another side of the situation. I really think that if you were to take another look at the situation from an outside view, you may change your perception. Just a suggestion.

Haunted · May 8, 2008

Let me play devil's advocate a bit.
You don't know the history at that home. I worked for a police dept and yes it is a civil matter until a crime occurs. If she felt threatened, she should have gone to the house when he wouldn't be there. You knew that he was drinking and making threats before you even went over there, what did you expect?
As far as the officers' reaction, they were responding to the scene of a domestic disturbance. They had to make sure no one had any weapons, you were part of the disturbance so therefore you were treated like a suspect. Do you know their history? You know of her allegations of a abuse but do you know what else has gone on? I don't know any more than you do but I worked at the police dept in Chattanooga and I know that if a residence has a history the dispatcher will let the officers know. For instance, my ex's residence had a warning that he was violent and had multiple firearms. They always sent two deputies to his home. Did he know this? Probably not.
All I'm saying is that you can't judge an entire state or even town on one incident. You don't know the whole story, you know the woman's side of the story. Now I have no doubt that he probably did do those things because well those were the very same reasons that I left my ex, minus the drinking. I also made the mistake of going back to the house, only I didn't take a posse with me. He was waiting in the dark for me. I packed the car but as I was leaving, he stood in the way and wouldn't let me leave. I thought I was going to have to run over him. His uncle (thankfully) was at home and came out and talked him into just letting me leave. The next time I went back was a month later when I knew he was not there. I took a truck and two guys with me. I did call the sheriff a year later when I had a court order to take some pictures of his home but was too scared to go to the house. BUT this was after my ex shot a full round of bullets into my car, hence the alert on his address.
Anyway, I guess I took offense to your post. Do "Good Ole Boys" clubs still exist? I'm sure that they do but I really don't see that as the case here. I see it as a wife leaving her husband, the husband going on a drinking binge and making threats, and the wife not heeding the threats and aggravating the situation by showing up at the house with friends. The officers responded to this scene, having limited information. Why should they automatically believe this woman...just because she's a woman? No, that's not how it works. I don't think they were comforting him. They were probably patting him on the back, leading him back to the house, telling him to sober up, and get his life straight.
There are alot of situations that we see with our own pair of glasses. Sometimes it hard to take them off and put on another person's to try to see another side of the situation. I really think that if you were to take another look at the situation from an outside view, you may change your perception. Just a suggestion.

Thanks for your reply. It truly cemented my opinion. I come from California. I remember vividly hearing the 911 calls from Nicole Simpson, wife of OJ Simpson. We were all riveted by the televised broadcast of the trial and outcome. I stand by my opinion. When it comes down to ANYONE abusing a child or bullying ANYONE and I can make a difference, I will do that. I may get going to get banned for originating this post and I am taking this entire story public in any way that I can.

What is happening here is wrong. I know everything this woman told me. I saw how this ole boy responded, not just to me, but towards her and the threats he verbalized to her children. I saw how the police responded. I'm a nurse and I have an ethical duty to maintain my profession but I am also a human being and if it was a man being abused in this situation I would stick up for him in the same way. I know this thread is a hot button so I am taking the liberty of saving and printing it if I get banned but it truly is a nurse issue as well as protecting the rights and well being of kids and victims.

BinkieRN, BSN, RN · May 8, 2008

Haunted I think you are awesome! People are too quick to close doors, call the police and just keep out of it. Could be the police know him well from previous calls? Could be they know alot more than they can say about that particular family situation. Anyway, You are a hero :nurse: And yes this does have to do with being human and being a nurse.

elkpark · May 8, 2008

Thanks for your reply. It truly cemented my opinion. I come from California. I remember vividly hearing the 911 calls from Nicole Simpson, wife of OJ Simpson. We were all riveted by the televised broadcast of the trial and outcome. I stand by my opinion. When it comes down to ANYONE abusing a child or bullying ANYONE and I can make a difference, I will do that. I may get going to get banned for originating this post and I am taking this entire story public in any way that I can.
What is happening here is wrong. I know everything this woman told me. I saw how this ole boy responded, not just to me, but towards her and the threats he verbalized to her children. I saw how the police responded. I'm a nurse and I have an ethical duty to maintain my profession but I am also a human being and if it was a man being abused in this situation I would stick up for him in the same way. I know this thread is a hot button so I am taking the liberty of saving and printing it if I get banned but it truly is a nurse issue as well as protecting the rights and well being of kids and victims.

I agree with you; I come from another state where, as a member of NOW, I was part of the group of citizens that fought for years to get laws changed so that, when police were called to a domestic disturbance, they were required to do something (arrest someone) rather than just sit back and wait "until a crime happened" (and we all know the woman typically gets the short end of that particular stick ... :uhoh21:). Civilized states have laws like that (and TN doesn't ... :rolleyes: )

Columnist · May 8, 2008

Until about ten years ago, many states still had laws that required a police officer to witness an assault before making an arrest. Today, without having witnessed the event, officers in all states can arrest someone they suspect has committed a domestic assault. The majority of states have adopted preferred arrest policies which require police to either arrest one or both parties at the scene, or write a report justifying why an arrest is not made. Arrest policies do differ by jurisdiction, even in the same state. Some states -- such as New York, Wisconsin, and Minnesota -- have adopted mandatory arrest policies which dictate that an officer must make an arrest at a domestic situation. Such policies were adopted after it was realized how serious domestic situations could be for the victims and their children.

Usually, if none of these conditions are satisfied, the officer may use his or her discretion in deciding whether to make an arrest.

Tennessee Code Annotated Title 36 Chapter 3 Part 6 addresses domestic violence and an officer's duties when responding to such a call.

36-3-619. Officer response-Primary aggressor-Factors-Reports-Notice to victim of legal rights. --
(a) If a law enforcement officer has probable cause to believe that a person has committed a crime involving domestic abuse, whether the crime is a misdemeanor or felony, or was committed within or without the presence of the officer, the preferred response of the officer is arrest.
(b) If a law enforcement officer has probable cause to believe that two (2) or more persons committed a misdemeanor or felony, or if two (2) or more persons make complaints to the officer, the officer shall try to determine who was the primary aggressor. Arrest is the preferred response only with respect to the primary aggressor. The officer shall presume that arrest is not the appropriate response for the person or persons who were not the primary aggressor. If the officer believes that all parties are equally responsible, the officer shall exercise such officer's best judgment in determining whether to arrest all, any or none of the parties.
© To determine who is the primary aggressor, the officer shall consider:
(1) The history of domestic abuse between the parties;
(2) The relative severity of the injuries inflicted on each person;
(3) Evidence from the persons involved in the domestic abuse;
(4) The likelihood of future injury to each person;
(5) Whether one (1) of the persons acted in self-defense; and
(6) Evidence from witnesses of the domestic abuse.
(d) A law enforcement officer shall not:
(1) Threaten, suggest, or otherwise indicate the possible arrest of all parties to discourage future requests for intervention by law enforcement personnel; or
(2) Base the decision of whether to arrest on:
(A) The consent or request of the victim; or
(B) The officer's perception of the willingness of the victim or of a witness to the domestic abuse to testify or participate in a judicial proceeding.
(e) When a law enforcement officer investigates an allegation that domestic abuse occurred, the officer shall make a complete report and file the report with the officer's supervisor in a manner that will permit data on domestic abuse cases to be compiled. If a law enforcement officer decides not to make an arrest or decides to arrest two (2) or more parties, the officer shall include in the report the grounds for not arresting anyone or for arresting two (2) or more parties.
(f) Every month, the officer's supervisor shall forward the compiled data on domestic abuse cases to the administrative director of the courts.
(g) When a law enforcement officer responds to a domestic abuse call, the officer shall:
(1) Offer to transport the victim to a place of safety, such as a shelter or similar location or the residence of a friend or relative, unless it is impracticable for the officer to transport the victim, in which case the officer shall offer to arrange for transportation as soon as practicable;
(2) Advise the victim of a shelter or other service in the community; and
(3) Give the victim notice of the legal rights available by giving the victim a copy of the following statement:
(4) Offer to transport the victim to the location where arrest warrants are issued in that city or county and assist the victim in obtaining an arrest warrant against the alleged abuser.
[Acts 1995, ch. 507, 5; 1996, ch. 684, 3, 4.]

http://www.michie.com/tennessee/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&cp=

Haunted · May 8, 2008

Thanks for the legal link. Very informative.

dee78 · May 8, 2008

I didn't say that you shouldn't have helped her, I'm simply saying the confrontation could have been avoided and all parties should accept their responsiblity in the confrontation.

The officers were not responding to a domestic assault, they were responding to a disturbance. But if anyone should be arrested, it should be the ones that went there knowing that there was going to be a confrontation. He was just sitting in his house and drinking some beer (assuming), which is perfectly legal. And then she shows up at the house, knowing that he is drunk and making threats, and calls the cops because he's acting the way that she knew he would be acting.

Stepping in and helping is great, but I would help in other ways. I would not knowingly confront a drunk and expect anything less than what you got. I would do as you first did and show her the resources. If there were a true threat, I would file a restraining order against him. A court date would be set and the judge would give her a chance to go into the home to get her things. THEN with a court order, the officers will accompany her to the home. This isn't just sitting by and letting it happen, but it also isn't putting yourself and others in a dangerous situation.

My husband is from Southern California, his only comment is that there's a reason why some people call it the "People's Republic of Kalifornia". Things work differently here in Tennessee. A woman isn't believed just because she's a woman. A man isn't arrested just because he raises his voice and says some bad words. It takes more than just an allegation to get someone arrested, a crime has to actually occur. There are pros and cons to both ways but what works one place doesn't necessarily work in another, I'm not speaking badly of California or any other state has those laws but I don't agree with them.

tnrose · May 9, 2008

I'm sorry this happened to your friend, but I am a bit offended by your post. It comes off to me that you are putting down tennessee, and southerners in general. Again, i'm not saying what happened was right in any way, I guess being from tennessee, (and proud of it), I am concerned that as usual many see us in just the way you described. I'm sure there are many wrongs done in cases like this all over, not just in tennessee.

Haunted · May 9, 2008

I didn't say that you shouldn't have helped her, I'm simply saying the confrontation could have been avoided and all parties should accept their responsiblity in the confrontation.
The officers were not responding to a domestic assault, they were responding to a disturbance. But if anyone should be arrested, it should be the ones that went there knowing that there was going to be a confrontation. He was just sitting in his house and drinking some beer (assuming), which is perfectly legal. And then she shows up at the house, knowing that he is drunk and making threats, and calls the cops because he's acting the way that she knew he would be acting.
Stepping in and helping is great, but I would help in other ways. I would not knowingly confront a drunk and expect anything less than what you got. I would do as you first did and show her the resources. If there were a true threat, I would file a restraining order against him. A court date would be set and the judge would give her a chance to go into the home to get her things. THEN with a court order, the officers will accompany her to the home. This isn't just sitting by and letting it happen, but it also isn't putting yourself and others in a dangerous situation.
My husband is from Southern California, his only comment is that there's a reason why some people call it the "People's Republic of Kalifornia". Things work differently here in Tennessee. A woman isn't believed just because she's a woman. A man isn't arrested just because he raises his voice and says some bad words. It takes more than just an allegation to get someone arrested, a crime has to actually occur. There are pros and cons to both ways but what works one place doesn't necessarily work in another, I'm not speaking badly of California or any other state has those laws but I don't agree with them.

Dee, in this case time was of the essence. A court date would have been weeks away, by then he may have the opportunity to destroy her or her childrens property. I guess you are right, justice would have been better served if the officers had arrested us. We were quite clearly in the wrong to want to obtain her children and belongings from her home. I feel just awful for putting a damper on his drinking binge.

I do appreciate you and your husbands comments regarding California, sorry Kalifornia. One would never consider that a put down or suggest you were speaking badly of California, however this issue is centered on domestic abuse and the response I observed here in Tennessee. But since you brought it up, why do things "work" differently here? I'm not a lawyer but a trained nurse who deals with assault victims and perpetrators on a forensic level. My experience with California law enforcement is quite different. And the outcome for the abused party has a far greater success rate due to the immediate response by a qualified SART team. We often don't have time to wait around for a court date in an effort to process evidence and provide safety to the victims.

Haunted · May 9, 2008

I'm sorry this happened to your friend, but I am a bit offended by your post. It comes off to me that you are putting down tennessee, and southerners in general. Again, i'm not saying what happened was right in any way, I guess being from tennessee, (and proud of it), I am concerned that as usual many see us in just the way you described. I'm sure there are many wrongs done in cases like this all over, not just in tennessee.

TN, first this woman is a friend of a neighbor, she and her husband have shown us an incredible sense of friendship and kindness since we bought this old house. They have demonstrated time and again that neighbors look out for one another. I don't assume it is a "Tennessee thing or a Southern thing" but rather the way humans and neighbor should be towards each other.

On the other hand, I am deeply concerned about the LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENT and the attitude with which they responded. As I seek more information I am discovering that there are many more issues festering deep in the bowels of this organization. Since these are the law enforcement officers who are trained to protect and to serve us all in this town, the concern is great. I could just shake my head and continue to hear stories about women getting away with murder, like that wife in Selmer who shot her sleeping husband in the back. I can read about the guy in Nashville who shot his exgirlfriends puppy in the face in front of her because she wouldn't take him back.

I can just assume it's normal behavior that a Major League athlete was running a dog fighting ring in Virginia, complete with rape stands and mass graves for the losers. Since that never happened in my neighborhood it doesn't effect me or mine. We can all just bury our heads and go on about our busy lives since it didn't happen to us or our family. But Michael Vick had neighbors. That preachers wife had neighbors. They discovered the horrific aftermath of those crimes.

It's not a "southern thing or a tennessee thing". It's a human thing and it should not seperate and divide us but bring us together to confront it and stop it.